+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Late Roman Unit Sizes (/showthread.php?tid=23660)
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-23-2014
"προσκουλκάτορας προσέταξεν ἄνδρας γενναίους ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν λαγκιαρίων καὶ ματτιαρίων χιλίους πεντακοσίους"
"He set as scouts brave men from the arithmos of the lanciarii and the mattiarii 1,500"
13.21
The thing is that no manpower number is given for the arithmoi themselves. Having selected 1,500 men from them seems to imply that together, they numbered more than that but nothing more. Zosimus also mentions the Mattiarii, the Lacciarii and the Victores at a certain siege, where he calls them lochoi (3.22.2).
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-23-2014
Quote:"προσκουλκάτορας προσέταξεν ἄνδρας γενναίους ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν λαγκιαρίων καὶ ματτιαρίων χιλίους πεντακοσίους"Elizabeth Jeffreys et al. translate this as, "He . . . ordered the advance scouts to go ahead of them, 1500 valiant men from the numerus of the Lanciarii and Mattiarii."
"He set as scouts brave men from the arithmos of the lanciarii and the mattiarii 1,500"
13.21
The interesting thing about this is that arithmos and numerus are singulars. Does this mean that the Lanciarii and the Mattiarii had been combined into a single unit for this campaign?
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-23-2014
Maybe, although (not the best of Greek of course) it could be that Malalas' source meant two separate arithmoi as in a sentence similar to "1,500 men from unit One and (unit) Two". I tend to trust Zosimus more than Malalas.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 03-23-2014
Quote:Macedon post=352863 Wrote:"προσκουλκάτορας προσέταξεν ἄνδρας γενναίους ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν λαγκιαρίων καὶ ματτιαρίων χιλίους πεντακοσίους"Elizabeth Jeffreys et al. translate this as, "He . . . ordered the advance scouts to go ahead of them, 1500 valiant men from the numerus of the Lanciarii and Mattiarii."
"He set as scouts brave men from the arithmos of the lanciarii and the mattiarii 1,500"
13.21
The interesting thing about this is that arithmos and numerus are singulars. Does this mean that the Lanciarii and the Mattiarii had been combined into a single unit for this campaign?
Michael, my research indicates that both Palatine Legions and Auxiliary units could, and often were, brigaded together. And it was not always the same two units either, although in most most cases it was the same two. The Lanciarii and Mattiarii appear to be brigaded together during Julian's Sassanid campaign, as were the Herculanii and the Iovanii Legions. The Lanciarii and Mattiarii were brigaded together at Adrianople. The Auxiliary unit Batavi was generally brigaded with the auxiliary unit Heruli, but was also noted as being brigaded with the Regii and also at least once with the Victores. We know that when the Batavi and the Heruli were brigaded together they shared the same standards. I'm not sure, nor convinced the legiones that were brigaded together would have done so.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-23-2014
Quote:Macedon post=352863 Wrote:"προσκουλκάτορας προσέταξεν ἄνδρας γενναίους ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν λαγκιαρίων καὶ ματτιαρίων χιλίους πεντακοσίους"Elizabeth Jeffreys et al. translate this as, "He . . . ordered the advance scouts to go ahead of them, 1500 valiant men from the numerus of the Lanciarii and Mattiarii."
"He set as scouts brave men from the arithmos of the lanciarii and the mattiarii 1,500"
13.21
The interesting thing about this is that arithmos and numerus are singulars. Does this mean that the Lanciarii and the Mattiarii had been combined into a single unit for this campaign?
Quote:Michael, my research indicates that both Palatine Legions and Auxiliary units could, and often were, brigaded together. And it was not always the same two units either, although in most most cases it was the same two. The Lanciarii and Mattiarii appear to be brigaded together during Julian's Sassanid campaign, as were the Herculanii and the Iovanii Legions. The Lanciarii and Mattiarii were brigaded together at Adrianople. The Auxiliary unit Batavia was generally brigaded with the auxiliary unit Heruli, but was also noted as being brigaded withe the Regii and also at least once with the Victories. We know that when the Batavia and the Heruli were brigaded together they shared the same standards. I'm not sure, nor convinced the legiones that were brigaded together would have done so.
So we have 2 numeri, one from each Legion, brigaded together and each numbers 750 men.
Knowing the Romans liked to round things, could this not have been 720 men each? That's easily divisible by 8 and a number the Romans liked to use.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-23-2014
Quote:Michael, my research indicates that both Palatine Legions and Auxiliary units could, and often were, brigaded together. And it was not always the same two units either, although in most most cases it was the same two. The Lanciarii and Mattiarii appear to be brigaded together during Julian's Sassanid campaign, as were the Herculanii and the Iovanii Legions. The Lanciarii and Mattiarii were brigaded together at Adrianople.Indeed, but in those instances do they preserve their separate identities? If Malalas is suggesting that this was a vexillation made up of elements from the two units (and, of course, I take Macedon's reservations into account), it would make sense, as they were used to working together. Incidentally, Ammianus 14.1.2 confirms the number of 1500. Rolfe's translation calls them 'mounted scouts' but Ammianus says nothing about their being mounted. The word he uses is excursatores which my dictionary calls 'skirmishers' but I suppose that, in this context, 'scouts' would do just as well. This said, the doubts about Malalas mean that it would be unsafe to rely upon him.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-23-2014
Quote:2 numeri, one from each Legion, brigaded together and each numbers 750 men.
I believe Malalas is just calling the two legions numeri. This again suggests that the word numerus could refer to military units of various sizes, and was not an exact term.
Quote:Knowing the Romans liked to round things, could this not have been 720 men each?
Do we know they 'liked to round things up'? Or is it more likely that Roman historians (like writers of any era) preferred to quote approximate rather than exact figures?
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-23-2014
Quote:Indeed, but in those instances do they preserve their separate identities? If Malalas is suggesting that this was a vexillation made up of elements from the two units (and, of course, I take Macedon's reservations into account), it would make sense, as they were used to working together. Incidentally, Ammianus 14.1.2 confirms the number of 1500. Rolfe's translation calls them 'mounted scouts' but Ammianus says nothing about their being mounted. The word he uses is excursatores which my dictionary calls 'skirmishers' but I suppose that, in this context, 'scouts' would do just as well. This said, the doubts about Malalas mean that it would be unsafe to rely upon him.
Isn't Cursatores the same as the Greek Koursorses?
Quote:I believe Malalas is just calling the two legions numeri. This again suggests that the word numerus could refer to military units of various sizes, and was not an exact term.
For the 4th century I agree. However, beginning in the 5th century there seems to be an established unit size for the Numerus, especially considering all the Palatina regiments are listed as Numerii.
So we have two detachments of two legions numbering 750 men each. That number works well with a 1500, 3000, or 6000 man Legion, purely in terms of divisibility.
But whose to say they were detachments? The Greek Text specifies he sent them out as scouts, not he sent detachments out as scouts.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-23-2014
I have to remind you Evan that Malalas says that these men were taken from this unit / these units. They are a part of it not the whole, so the unit(s) are larger than 1500 men in total.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-23-2014
Can you post that part of the text? I missed it in the portions above.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-23-2014
Quote:Can you post that part of the text? I missed it in the portions above.
Sure,
"προσκουλκάτορας προσέταξεν ἄνδρας γενναίους ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν λαγκιαρίων καὶ ματτιαρίων χιλίους πεντακοσίους"
"He set as scouts brave men from the arithmos of the lanciarii and the mattiarii 1,500" 13.21
This is clear in the text. It cannot be translated as "the brave men of the arithmos".
Quote:I believe Malalas is just calling the two legions numeri. This again suggests that the word numerus could refer to military units of various sizes, and was not an exact term.
Zosimus also calls them lochoi not tagmata, or teloi which would point at them (and the Victores as far as he was concerned), ) being something less than a legion. There he is in agreement with Malalas (and the latter's source). Do we know that they were legions?
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-23-2014
Quote:I believe Malalas is just calling the two legions numeri. This again suggests that the word numerus could refer to military units of various sizes, and was not an exact term.
Zosimus also calls them lochoi not tagmata, or teloi which would point at them (and the Victores as far as he was concerned), ) being something less than a legion. There he is in agreement with Malalas (and the latter's source). Do we know that they were legions?
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-23-2014
EDIT: It depends on which Mattiarii and Lanciarii it was.
Assuming we're referring to only Palatina units, it was a Numerus (Mattiarii Honoriani Gallicani) and a Legio Palatina Unit called the Lanciarii Seniores.
EDIT 2:
As for the size of the unit:
"In the Byzantine army, the lochos continued being used as a term for the file. It was the basic infantry unit of usually 8 men, composed of the file leader (lochagos) and seven soldiers. In the tradition of the Roman contubernium, this unit slept and ate together in a single tent, and had a permanently attached servant. Alternative names were dekarchion and dekarchos for the file leader, meaning "leader of ten"." - Wikipedia on the Lochos
Got nothing on the Telos.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-23-2014
Considering this is like the 10th time this topic has been brought up in the past 2 years in a variety of different threads, I stickied it so that way people don't have to start new ones each time.
I also had a thought:
In the Vita Germani Constantius of Lyon gives a brief description of the British forces (their description somewhat matches that of the old Limitanei and Vigilies) and then says that Germanus "based the army on a new model."
Could the Notitia Dignitatum, a 1500 man Legion, the standardization of the size of the Arithmos, and the mention by Constantius all be references to a reform of the Roman Army taking place between 395 and 419? After all, it is only in those years do new units like the Cuneus begin to appear.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-23-2014
Nathan wrote:
Do we know they 'liked to round things up'? Or is it more likely that Roman historians (like writers of any era) preferred to quote approximate rather than exact figures?
I’d place my money on rounding up and down throughout the primary sources. Caesar numbers his army at Pharsalus at 22,000 men but Appian claims “about” 22,000 men. Polybius at Cannae has the Roman cavalry at “over 6000,” while Appian gives 6000. These are obvious accounts of rounding.
Nathan wrote:
I believe Malalas is just calling the two legions numeri. This again suggests that the word numerus could refer to military units of various sizes, and was not an exact term.
My latest number crunching is leading me to believe a numerus or numerii (excuse my bad Latin or lack of it), is a body of men selected from the various units in the army. So for example a 300 man unit could consist of 20 men taken from 15 units or 50 men taken from six units. These troops could be of different troop types (lanciarii, archers spearmen etc.). Like a WWII German kampgroup. Interesting how 1500 men could equate to five units of 300 men, which is a predominant figure in Ammianus.
Concerning the Lanciarii and Mattiarii, I understand the Lanciarii can be classified as light-armed infantry, but are the Mattiarii those men who were armed with the short dart?