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Late Roman Unit Sizes - Printable Version

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Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-19-2014

Quote:
Macedon post=352697 Wrote:In it arrayed the Joviani and the Herculiani, these are names of tagmata, established by Diocletianus and Maximianus.
You may be able to explain a peculiarity of Ridley's translation. He ends 3.30.2 with " . . . where the Joviani and Herculani were posted." Then, in an asterisked footnote, he adds, "The names of these legions were given by Diocletian and Maximian: they bear their surnames Jovius and Herculius respectively." He does this sort of thing many times in his translation but there is no explanation that I can find of what these footnotes are. Possibly they come from another manuscript. Do you know?

I used the TLG Greek text taken from Hist. F. Paschoud, Zosime. Histoire nouvelle, vols. 1-3.2. Paris: Les Belles Lettres.

The full text in question says :

"ἐτετάχατο δὲ ἐν τούτῳ Ἰοβιανοὶ καὶ Ἑρκουλιανοί· ταγμάτων δὲ ταῦτα ὀνόματα, παρὰ Διοκλητιανοῦ καὶ Μαξιμιανοῦ καταστάντα, φερόντων τὰς τούτων ἐπωνυμίας· ὃ μὲν γὰρ Διὸς ὃ δὲ Ἡρακλέους ἐπώνυμον εἶχε."

which translates to

In it arrayed the Joviani and the Herculiani, these are names of tagmata, established by Diocletianus and Maximianus, bearing their names. For one had the surname of Dias (Zeus/Jupiter) and the other of Heracles.

It seems to be a part of the text so I do not understand why he should only mention it in the footnote and not in the text itself. Maybe the manuscript he used does not have this specific part? I also am certain that I have come across this information a number of times (almost verbatim) in other authors, possibly quoting Zosimus or an original source. If you need me to, I can look which authors these are.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-20-2014

Macedon wrote:
In 6 arithmoi, about 4,000 soldiers sailed to Ravenna at night from the east.

If you were a woman Macedon I would marry you. If your translation of “about 4000” is correct, then it must mean 3600 men.

Renatus wrote:
You may be able to explain a peculiarity of Ridley's translation…He does this sort of thing many times in his translation but there is no explanation that I can find of what these footnotes are. Possibly they come from another manuscript. Do you know?

I am expecting an answer from Professor Ridley very soon. I think he has been holidaying, and being of the old school, means no internet. That has been my experience with him over the last 12 years. He also does not have a television.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-20-2014

Quote:It seems to be a part of the text so I do not understand why he should only mention it in the footnote and not in the text itself.
Neither do I, especially as I now find, having looked at his Preface, that "The translation is based on the excellent and standard text of Ludwig Mendelssohn (1887)" and Mendelssohn includes the passage in his main text. I look forward to hearing the result of Steven's enquiry.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-20-2014

Quote:I used the TLG Greek text taken from Hist. F. Paschoud, Zosime. Histoire nouvelle, vols. 1-3.2. Paris: Les Belles Lettres.
The TLG version seems to be available online only to subscribers, so I cannot access it. Does it include Paschoud's apparatus and, if so, in relation to 6.8.2, does he have anything to say on the 40,000/4000 issue? Mendelssohn's apparatus indicates that the conjecture that the manuscript text might be defective and that the true reading should be 4000 goes right back to the first printed edition, Leunclavius' Latin translation of 1576.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-20-2014

TLG only provides the Greek text, no translation (apart from some links to project Gutenberg and other such free online sites) or footnotes, so I cannot say. However, it does not mark the text in question as corrupt or conjecture.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-20-2014

Quote:Macedon wrote:
In 6 arithmoi, about 4,000 soldiers sailed to Ravenna at night from the east.

If you were a woman Macedon I would marry you. If your translation of “about 4000” is correct, then it must mean 3600 men.

Well... I cannot know whether he means 3,600 but the "about" is there all right ("amphi").

I have to point out here, as a general remark, that in Greek numbering, 4,000 cannot easily be mistaken for 40,000 and vice versa as 4 is δ and 40 is μ. We nowadays tend to think that someone might have misplaced a 0 or something but with ancient Greek it is not the same.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-20-2014

Macedon wrote:
Well... I cannot know whether he means 3,600 but the "about" is there all right ("amphi").

Thank you for the confirmation. I’m taking a punt with 3600 men. But confirming it is “about” is evidence it is either above or below 4000 men, but not exactly 4000 men. Sorry Evan.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-20-2014

I'm going with the "about 4000" divided by the 6 Arithmoi and a papyrus that records an Arithmos from Justinian's time to determine the size of a Numerus (AFAIK Arithmos=Numerus) could have possibly been 600 men.

The Noumeros of the Strategikon, however, numbers 300 men, and I reconciled the three sources by saying that some palatine units were doubles.

Then, using Claudian's account of the 5 Palatine Units and 2 Legions crossing to Africa under Macezel in 398, I determined that the two Legions would have numbered (about I should mention) 1450 men. This coincides with the Illyrian Legions (numbering 1425 each) and John Lydus.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-20-2014

When Julian was sent to Gaul in 355 AD, according to Julian, Constantius gave Julian 360 soldiers. (Julian (Letter to the Athenians 277 D) Zosimus writes that Constantine gave Julian not more than 360 men. Unfortunately the online version I have of Zosimus only has this reference as part of book 4.

The question to Macedon is, does Julian’s translation say it is exactly 360 men or about 360 men. I also would like to know what the translation of the Zosimus about the 360 men is but first I will try and find the correct reference.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-20-2014

The question is - were they cavalrymen or infantry?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-20-2014

Evan wrote:
The question is - were they cavalrymen or infantry?

Based on my compilation of the empirical data I have gathered for the Late Roman army, I’m confident they are cavalry.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-20-2014

Quote:When Julian was sent to Gaul in 355 AD, according to Julian, Constantius gave Julian 360 soldiers. (Julian (Letter to the Athenians 277 D) Zosimus writes that Constantine gave Julian not more than 360 men. Unfortunately the online version I have of Zosimus only has this reference as part of book 4.

The question to Macedon is, does Julian’s translation say it is exactly 360 men or about 360 men. I also would like to know what the translation of the Zosimus about the 360 men is but first I will try and find the correct reference.

"Τριακοσίους ἑξήκοντά μοι δοὺς στρατιώτας", Flavius Claudius Julianus Imperator Phil., Ἀθηναίων τῇ βουλῇ καὶ τῷ δήμῳ., 7,24

Tr: "Giving me 360 soldiers..."

"οἱ δὲ παρὰ Κωνσταντίου δοθέντες αὐτῷ, τριακόσιοι καὶ ἑξήκοντα τὸν ἀριθμὸν ὄντες", Zosimus, Historia nova, 3.3.2

Tr: "Those who were given him by Constantius, being 360 in number"


Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-20-2014

Thank you for the translation Macedon. It is very helpful. This now leads me to believe Ammianus two turmae of 700 cavalry equates to 720 men rounded. Therefore, two turmae of 360 men. However, I think the word turmae is a copyist error and it should be tagmata.

Again thanks for the translation.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-20-2014

What turmae?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-20-2014

Happy to have been of assistance! :-)

However, tagmata is a Greek term, I doubt it that it would be used in a Latin text..