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Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - inkstain - 02-17-2014
When we read Ammianus Marcellinus, he talks about General Claudius Silvanus paying his troops on August 7 in Agrippina in the name of Constantius II, (hence under torture later Adjutant Proculus says that Silvanus' loyalty to Constantius was obvious or he would have paid the gold out in his own name.) From the AM account, we can assume that the two Auxiliae Palatinae, the Brachiati and Cornuti regiments, were there. But was the Legio XXX Ulpia Victrix still up there or out in Persia (they were at Armida later.) Are there any other regulars I should mention as being on the field to collect their donativum that day or was it just the Brachiati and Cornuti?
How many soldiers do you reckon were there in total to collect?
Many thanks, as ever, to the brains here.
Milo
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Nathan Ross - 02-17-2014
Quote:was the Legio XXX Ulpia Victrix still up there or out in Persia (they were at Armida later.)
As we don't know of any other thirtieth legions in the Roman army, we might assume that the legion mentioned by Ammianus (18,9,3) as being at Amida was indeed XXX Ulpia Victrix - it seems likely that it, like the other Magnentiaci et Decentiaci, had been transferred from the Rhine after the defeat of the Gallic usurpers.
Quote:Are there any other regulars I should mention as being on the field to collect their donativum that day or was it just the Brachiati and Cornuti? How many soldiers do you reckon were there in total...?
Silvanus was magister peditum in Gaul, and his army was presumably the same one taken over by Julian and used in his wars against the Alamanni shortly afterwards. So we might assume the Primani legion (perhaps descended from I Minervia?), plus the Batavi, Regii, Petulantes and others to have been with Silvanus. The soldiers allegedly wanted to march on Italy, so they must have been a formidable force - Silvanus had brought 8000 auxilia as reinforcements with him to Gaul. Julian's army numbered 13,000 at Strasbourg, but the text implies that many more had either deserted beforehand or been scattered elsewhere. As a rough guess, I would think 15-20 thousand men a reasonable number for the Gallic field army in 355.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - inkstain - 02-17-2014
Are you saying that it would be possible for the entire Gallic army to be in one field (to hear him speak on August 7 as reported by A.M.?) Would it be physically possible to distribute pay to 15,000 to 20,000 men? How many do you think would have been physically in one place to be paid on that day outside Agrippina?
I know the auxiliaries were keen to rise up and attack Italy, but I didn't have the impression that there was an army-wide concensus across Gaul. Was there even time for that? The whole Silvanus debacle seems to have happened in a matter of a few short weeks.
Thanks
I apologize in advance for possibly posting this in the wrong department. I meant to put it into the history category.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Nathan Ross - 02-17-2014
Quote:posting this in the wrong department. I meant to put it into the history category
Could a helpful moderator move the thread, perhaps? Thanks.
Quote:Are you saying that it would be possible for the entire Gallic army to be in one field (to hear him speak on August 7 as reported by A.M.?) Would it be physically possible to distribute pay to 15,000 to 20,000 men?
I remember we discussed Roman public speaking and imperial addresses just over a year ago in this thread, Milo. I still think it's likely that either the whole army, or representatives of the different units, were assembled, yes. We still don't really know how troops were paid - the actual physical process of putting money in their hands, I mean - but I should think a commander would want to be present at the ceremony. An emperor even more so, of course, as it was being done in his name!
Quote:I didn't have the impression that there was an army-wide concensus across Gaul. Was there even time for that?
Ammianus could have been reporting the rumoured comments of a small body of hotheaded auxilia, or the universal acclaim of the assembled troops, we don't know. There's a sort of topos in later writing particularly for the soldiery en masse to suddenly fall into crazed and mutinous conduct, as if they have a kind of group-mind and are incapable of individual thought. In a way, Roman political theatre encouraged this, as we discussed before - the shouts of a claque are taken for the views of the multitude.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - inkstain - 02-18-2014
Yes, I've reread that thread and see there were more useful comments, thanks.
One of the considerations here is the timeframe. Assuming Silvanus had consolidated hold of garrisons along the Rhine by assigning parts of his Gallic army to territory regained, then how much time did he have between learning of the charges against him in Mediolanum, or hearing of Apodemius' rooting around the province investigating the charges, and gathering the army to announce his accession? If the entire army was gathered for payday altready on August 7, then that would have been convenient, but why would any commander call in an entire army from disputed land/hardwon territory just to distribute pay? If, on the other hand, the pay was distributed to representatives only, or only to the immediate troops around Agrippina, then four days sounds too short to gather the entire 15,000 to hear his decision to take the throne on August 11, especially when A.M. details that the decision was so quickly made, there was no purple cloak around to don.
All of this pushes me in the direction that the troops on hand in Agrippina were not the entire Gallic army under Silvanus as magister militum. I'm still unsure what numbers that would mean listening to his speech.
Thanks for all help, again,
Milo
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Nathan Ross - 02-18-2014
Quote:Assuming Silvanus had consolidated hold of garrisons along the Rhine by assigning parts of his Gallic army to territory regained
But why assume that? Garrisoning the border was the job of the limitanei, not the field army... If the limitanei had been dispersed or destroyed, Silvanus might have detached some of his troops to that duty, but as supreme commander in Gaul he surely would have kept the bulk of his field force with him, and so they would have been at Colonia for the August payday? 15-20,000 is a lot of men, but armies of that size and much larger had operated as coherent groups throughout Roman history.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-18-2014
It's thought the total size of the Gallic army in 395 was 34,000 men with another 12,000 Limitanei (AHM Jones). There had been plenty of cases of armies around 20,000 operating in Roman times effectively and efficiently.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - inkstain - 02-18-2014
Thanks, Evan, Thanks, Nathan,
That gives me another handle on it, but I'm personally too ignorant in my army knowledge to extrapolate backwards a full forty years, especially just after the civil war losses at Mursa and the damage wrought by Alemanni raiders in 354-355. When I check the individual histories of particular Rhine border sites, including the German pages, it looks like the limitanei were overwhelmed by Alemanni. The fact that Silvanus is praised for making it through ravaged Gaul and Alemannic assaults with his 8,000 men hints that those 8,000 were more than frosting on the cake. If there were as many as 12,000 waiting farther north, why did they lose Agrippina, etc.?
Each helpful answer prompts more curiosity in my mind.
Thanks to all for their time and expertise.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Nathan Ross - 02-18-2014
I've had another look through the relevant section of Ammianus, and I think you might be right about the full field army not being with Silvanus at the time of his acclamation.
In 15,5,24 Ammianus narrates that, upon his own arrival at Cologne, he found "a great crowd assembled from all sides gave a firm foundation to the enterprise so timidly begun, and large forces had been mustered..."
If 'large forces' had been 'assembled' or 'mustered', they would surely have been detached elsewhere beforehand. Ammianus could be referring to the limitanei garrisons, but more likely to various divisions of the field troops, which perhaps had been billeted in neighbouring cities.
The siege and fall of Cologne (Coloniam Agrippinum, as Ammianus calls it) so soon afterwards indicates that whatever large force assembled there by Silvanus had been moved elsewhere after his death. In fact, we learn in Book 16 that Marcellus (successor to Ursicinus, himself successor to Silvanus) had apparently dispersed his army in various locations across northern Gaul: Julian "made for the city of Rheims. There he had ordered the whole army to assemble with provisions for a month and to await his coming; the place was commanded by Ursicinus' successor Marcellus" (16,2,8)
Billeting the field army in different cities some distance behind the frontier seems to have been a common practice in e.g. Syria, so probably the same was true for Gaul.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - inkstain - 02-19-2014
Thanks, Nathan, that makes me feel a little less confused. I'm grateful for your examination of the source. So how many and who was there? If I speculate that representatives for the legions had come in to collect pay on August 7, and joined Silvanus' 8000 men (which was comprised of the Brachiati and Cornuti and ??) I'm still fumbling...if I estimate 10,000, will I make a fool of myself? (correction, more of a fool...)
Best wishes,
Milo
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Nathan Ross - 02-19-2014
Quote:.if I estimate 10,000, will I make a fool of myself?
No, that sounds highly plausible, I'd say. We have Ammianus's statement that 8000 auxilia were with Silvanus on his journey north - these might also include Batavi, Regii, Petulantes, probably others like the Heruli and Mattiaci, plus mounted troops (equites Bracchiati, etc). He may have collected more field army soldiers from their billets as he moved up to Cologne.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-19-2014
Quote:Milo Cross post=351196 Wrote:.if I estimate 10,000, will I make a fool of myself?
No, that sounds highly plausible, I'd say. We have Ammianus's statement that 8000 auxilia were with Silvanus on his journey north - these might also include Batavi, Regii, Petulantes, probably others like the Heruli and Mattiaci, plus mounted troops (equites Bracchiati, etc). He may have collected more field army soldiers from their billets as he moved up to Cologne.
I'd disagree about the Heruli, considering it's more likely the Heruli were created with the contingent that followed the Grethungi over the Danube in 378 (They may have also entered the empire in 405 with Radagasius, especially considering many of his troops were drafted into the army). But 10,000 is a plausible estimate if you assume the field army was divided up. The Salii would be plausible though.
Billeting soldiers would also explain why such a large number of field army regiments are named after cities - e.g. Prima Flavia Mettis (Metz), Cortoriacenses (Either Durocortorum or Cortoriacum), etc.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Nathan Ross - 02-19-2014
Quote:it's more likely the Heruli were created with the contingent that followed the Grethungi over the Danube in 378 (They may have also entered the empire in 405 with Radagasius...)
You could be right - although the naming of auxilia units is a mysterious process! Did the unit called Bructeri, for example, actually contain Bructeri? Was the Numerus Herulorum composed of Heruli? etc...
The cemetery at Concordia has a few Heruli inscriptions (e.g. Flavius Batemodus ducenarius de numero Herulorum seniorum). These inscriptions are commonly dated as late 4th / early 5th century, although on what basis I'm not sure.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-19-2014
Not to bring up the Ducenarius debate again, but the word itself might explain that dating. It's generally thought that the "Ducenarius" belonged to new-style units raised in the late 4th or early 5th century, onwards, as part of the transition towards the Legionary army of the Strategikon
I'm sure though that some inscription on one of the tombstones gives the dating. Probably a reference to the current emperor.
I should also mention that the "8 Ships Full" of Heruli that attacked Gallaecia in 457, assuming 70 men per ship (same number on ships in the Invasion of 468), that's about the size Auxilia Palatina units are estimated at. Of course it's more likely these were foederati recruited from Heruls settled with the Aquitanian Goths.
Who did General Silvanus pay on August 7, 355? - Nathan Ross - 02-19-2014
Quote:It's generally thought that the "Ducenarius" belonged to new-style units raised in the late 4th or early 5th century, onwards.
The word seems to appear first in a military context as a rank or position within the corps of Protectores, known from the late 3rd century (Claudius II Gothicus era). There's an inscription from Moesia (AE 1903, 00291) to Valerius Iovinus ducenario de numero ...ianorum promotorum, which starts with the formula Dis Inferis Manibus, indicating the man was a pagan and suggesting a mid-4th century date at the latest.
Quote:I'm sure though that some inscription on one of the tombstones gives the dating. Probably a reference to the current emperor.
You're quite right! - one Concordia inscription to a soldier of numero Bructerorum names the consuls as Arcadio et Honorio Augustis - so either AD394, 396 or 402...