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+--- Thread: Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt (/showthread.php?tid=23099)
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-09-2014
Quote:There is also the question of usage. The Greeks used the word kataphraktos to denote anything notable for being "covered over", including types of ship. Therefore, Greco-Roman usage in a military context may not have been particularly precise. Like the use of the English word 'harness' which could denote armour, but also anything notable for the use of strapping.I have no problem with any of this. You may be interested in this post, which summarizes my views on this subject:
Julian in an oration to Constantius II:
"...a cuirass made of small pieces protects the shoulders, back and breast. The head and face are covered by a metal mask which makes its wearer look like a glittering statue, for not even the thighs and legs and the very ends of the feet lack this armour. It is attached to the cuirass by fine chain-armour like a web, so that no part of the body is visible and uncovered,"
This sounds like the cuirass is not mail, but it is made of ''small pieces'' - scale or locked scale? My vote would be for locked scale or something else with a certain amount of rigidity, otherwise why would opponents of cataphracts be specially equipped with blunt trauma weapons?
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-military-history-a-archaeology/278996-the-arms-equipment-and-impact-of-late-roman-clibanarii.html?start=15#286514
Quote:I think someone suggested Ammianus' usage of Catafractarii may have also referred to infantry as well as cavalry.With respect, Evan, this sort of post is meaningless without either identifying the "someone", preferably with a reference to where he or she made the comment, or citing the relevant reference in Ammianus. I am, as always, open to correction but I do not believe that Ammianus ever refers to catafractarii as being other than cavalry.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Dan Howard - 02-09-2014
Quote:I do not favour the 'oven-men' theory, which seems to me to be a modern idea, but rather believe that clibanarius derives from clibanus or clivanus, meaning 'cuirass'.
Klibanos is Greek for "oven". AFAIK they never used it to describe armour. When did the Romans start using it to describe armour? The English "cuirass" originally denoted leather armour only, not metal. Over time it became associated with any kind of torso armour. Clibanarius could originally have meant "oven man" and, over time, the term became synonymous with armour.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-09-2014
Quote:With respect, Evan, this sort of post is meaningless without either identifying the "someone", preferably with a reference to where he or she made the comment, or citing the relevant reference in Ammianus. I am, as always, open to correction but I do not believe that Ammianus ever refers to catafractarii as being other than cavalry.
I'll look for the post, it might be on the old Cataphract thread on TWC. You and VV had a lot of discussion there.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Longovicium - 02-09-2014
Are you sure you are not thinking of Vegetius who uses the term when describing front-line heavy infantry (Book II:15 + Book I: 20 - cataphratcae)?
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-09-2014
Quote:When did the Romans start using it to describe armour?De rebus bellicis, 15. 2: lorica vel clivanus.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Dan Howard - 02-09-2014
Quote:At least a thousand years after the word was used to describe ovens. So this means that the opposite of what you suggest is more likely to be true. Clibanarius was used to describe an armoured cavalryman long before the derivative ever was used to mean "armour". Clibanus (meaning "armour") was likely derived from clibanarius, not the other way round.Dan Howard post=350656 Wrote:When did the Romans start using it to describe armour?De rebus bellicis, 15. 2: lorica vel clivanus.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-10-2014
Quote:Clibanarius was used to describe an armoured cavalryman long before the derivative ever was used to mean "armour".How long are you suggesting?
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Dan Howard - 02-10-2014
Ammianus Marcellinus uses "clibanarius" to denote armoured cavalry a century before de rebus bellicus uses "clibanus" to denote armour. In order for your argument to make sense you'd have to show that clibanus was used to denote armour before the term clibanarius was used to describe armoured cavalry. One might ask why they would use clibanus to describe armour in the first place? The word had never previously been used in any kind of martial context in Greek nor Latin. It means"oven" in both Greek and Latin.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-10-2014
Quote:Ammianus Marcellinus uses "clibanarius" to denote armoured cavalry a century before de rebus bellicus uses "clibanus" to denote armour.Where do you get that from? It is my understanding that DRB is to be dated to the joint reigns of Valentinian and Valens, so Ammianus and the Anonymous would be contemporaries.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Dan Howard - 02-10-2014
It was my understanding that DRB was 5th century while Amianus was 4th. Even if they are contemporary my original point still stands. You need to show that "clibanus" was used to denote armour before "clibanarius" was used to describe armoured cavalry. Otherwise the latter cannot have been derived from the former. Nobody can explain why they suddenly started using a completely new term to describe armour. As far as I can tell, "klibanos/clibanus" has never previously had a martial context in Greek nor Latin.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Caballo - 02-10-2014
Dan,
Btw, De Rebus Bellicis is dated by E.A. Thompson (quoted by Michael E. Jones in The End of Roman Britain) as 376-378 AD.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - ValentinianVictrix - 02-10-2014
I believe DRB is actually dated to between 364 and 375AD, Lenski actually states in 'Failure of Empire' that Valens had a copy of it when he campaigned against the Goths (a completely baffling statement to be honest as there is absolutely no literary reference to this.).
There are a number of references to Roman infantry wearing 'catafracts', body armour, if I remember rightly Vegetius states this when describing what the front rank infantry should wear in his ideal legion.
I was doing some research last night and came across that section in Zosimus where he claimed that Sharpur was attempting to buy iron from the Romans with the intention of using that iron to increase the armour of his cataphract cavalry. There followed a description of the Sasanid heavily armoured cavalry which were described as both riders and horses being clad in mail, with the riders having a face mask and additionally wearing a breastplate. Zosimus claimed the horse even had their legs encased in mail.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-10-2014
I would be interested in the relevant passages VV, if you can provide them.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Urselius - 02-10-2014
In reply to Dan. Harness was used in Middle English for non-military horse-gear from about 1300 and was in common use a century later, it was still being used for armour in the early 1600s so the dual use of the word for both armour and strapping was a fairly long one.
Mail offers no resistance to a the blunt trauma effect of a blow as it is flexible and will be deformed. Therefore a sword or spear will break bones and cause internal bleeding and organ damage. With a more rigid armour the focus of the blow is spread, so a percussive weapon is of more use. A heavy piece of iron on the end of a haft will produce a lot of momentum when used to deliver a blow, it will be able push a whole section of a semi-rigid armour into the body of the wearer, whereas an edged weapon will waste energy in deforming the individual elements of such an armour.
In nature. Mantis shrimp species that specialise in prey with softer bodies have spiked raptorial claws, but the ones specialising in heavily armoured prey have club-like claws- which have been known to break the thick plate glass of aquaria.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - ValentinianVictrix - 02-11-2014
Quote:I would be interested in the relevant passages VV, if you can provide them.
Can you be a bit more specific Evan as I'm not sure what passages your referring to in your reply.