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heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Urselius - 10-09-2013
There are illustrations of crossbows being used from horseback in late Medieval times, one featuring the Emperor Maximillian. The bolt was held in place by a swivelling clip made of feather quill or horn, essential for use on an unstable platform. It isn't clear how such weapons would be spanned on horseback. Mounted crossbowmen might provide one possible explaination of the escort of balistarii (and cataphracts) described accompanying the emperor Julian by Ammianus.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Vindex - 10-09-2013
Quote:I... however sometimes IMHO, warfare from later periods can help in understanding how the ancients fought, both cavalry & infantry. ...
Regards
Michael Kerr
I'm sorry, but I really must raise an objection here.
The minute you introduce the stirrup into cavalry, you are in a whole different ball game .
To me, this is like comparing an infantry batallion using muzzle loading long barrelled weapons to magazine fed rifles. They can still put down fire but their impact and effect - a grand military term which is what should be the source of this discussion - is VERY different, as are the tactics and potentially the strategies.
It isn't just apples and oranges, it's apples and chairs
hock:
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-09-2013
Quote:There are illustrations of crossbows being used from horseback in late Medieval times, one featuring the Emperor Maximillian. The bolt was held in place by a swivelling clip made of feather quill or horn, essential for use on an unstable platform. It isn't clear how such weapons would be spanned on horseback. Mounted crossbowmen might provide one possible explaination of the escort of balistarii (and cataphracts) described accompanying the emperor Julian by Ammianus.
Arrian also mentions mounted crossbowmen I believe, but I have to find the reference.
Of the Three Bone nuts found for Roman-Era Crossbows, they were bone or horn, two were rolling nuts and the third was a flat nut.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Macedon - 10-09-2013
Arrian does not. Maybe you confuse him with someone else? He does speak though of field engines.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Vindex - 10-09-2013
Erm...I thought we were supposed to be discussing heavy cavalry, guys?
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-09-2013
Well there are a lot of similarities between the light crossbow (arcuballista) when used from horseback, and the black powder pistol when used from horseback. Both were able to be fired one handed, they were both rather slow to reload, and they both were not very accurate at longer ranges. They both also fired more flat and level than a bow.
But pistols are not relevant to the Roman era; an Arcuballista was not usually powerful enough to punch through chainmail, while a pistol would shatter it.
Heavy cavalry using the Arcuballista from Horseback would be plausible, but is unlikely.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Robert - 10-10-2013
Oeps, sorry Evan, mixed them up. My objection is the same, these are very unyielding things and impossible to fire singlehanded (I have fired one at the LRE). So the introduction of pistols is totaly silly AND we have NO iconographic or written proof of cavalry in Roman era having used the crossbow.
I do agree with the moderation by Robert, as any time there is any discussion on cavalry, it seems a scant few of our esteemed members cannot control their hero worship of the grand Polish hussars or the glorious knights in shining armour and things get derailed at great speed. Moi makes an excellent point on the stirups, by the way.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-10-2013
Quote:Oeps, sorry Evan, mixed them up. My objection is the same, these are very unyielding things and impossible to fire singlehanded (I have fired one at the LRE). So the introduction of pistols is totaly silly AND we have NO iconographic or written proof of cavalry in Roman era having used the crossbow.
I do agree with the moderation by Robert, as any time there is any discussion on cavalry, it seems a scant few of our esteemed members cannot control their hero worship of the grand Polish hussars or the glorious knights in shining armour and things get derailed at great speed. Moi makes an excellent point on the stirups, by the way.
Moi indeed does make an excellent point.
The stirrup is applicable to Roman cavalry in the 5th-6th centuries, Its debatably believed Aetius introduced the stirrup from the Huns (whom may have had stirrups - its still debatable) because he was the last one with a long enough and stable enough administration to implement the change. However it is still unlikely.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Dan Howard - 10-10-2013
It seems that stirruips were invented to help horse archers stnad in the saddle when shooting. They didn't have much to do with a lance charge. So why would Roman heavy cavalry bother with stirrrups?
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-10-2013
Romans adopted lance-and-bow warfare in the 4th or 5th centuries, they would switch from the bow to the lance and wheel around on their enemy, like the Alan drill in the Strategikon. Also a change believed to have been implemented by the Alans.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Michael Kerr - 10-11-2013
Hi Moi, I take your point about stirrups changing the game in regards to cavalry warfare but, moving on & getting back to cataphracts & use of the contus. I have 2 translations of a passage in Ars Tactica.
First one is from Ann Hyland's book Training the Roman Cavalry where translation for Arr. Tact. 4,3 reads
The spear bearers are those who approach the enemy ranks & fight them off with spears or charge & drive them back with pikes like the Alans & Sarmatians, & the skirmishers are those who discharge their weapons from a distance, like the Armenians & those of the Parthians who do not carry pikes.
In 4,7 the translation reads
Of the Roman cavalry some carry pikes & charge in the manner of the Alans & Sarmatians & others have lances.
The other translation is from Agusti Alemany's book Sources on the Alans A Critical Compilation where it reads
The lancers are those who approach the enemy lines & fight with lances & pikes, hurling them during the assault, like the Alans & the Sauromatians, while the skirmishers are those who throw their javelins from afar, as the Armenians & those Parthians who do not carry pikes, do now.
In 4,7 translation reads
Among the Romans some horsemen bear pikes & attack in the way of the Alans & the Sauromatians, while others hold javelins.
I have never heard of cataphracts hurling their pikes but could explain 2 handed overhead posture. The 2 translations of 4,3 seem totally different or is there a problem differentiating between pikes, javelins & lances in translations. Any help would be appreciated.
Hyland says her translation is based on Teubner text of A.G. Roos rev.edn.GW Wirth, Leipzig 1968
Alemany in footnotes on page say Arr. Tact. 4,3 ed. Roos Bt II, p132
Regards
Michael Kerr
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Alanus - 10-11-2013
According to Tadeusz Sulimirski, stirrups were found in an Alanic grave. Probably in the Crimea. I can't give the page, but he mentioned them with absolutely no additional comments... as if they were standard fare. How inextricably odd! :dizzy:
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Michael Kerr - 10-11-2013
I seem to be having a problem seeing my post again.
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Dan Howard - 10-11-2013
Be very careful when using Hyland. She has little idea about ancient warfare and is very biased against "western" horses. Pretty much everything she writes has the subtext: "aren't Arabian horses wonderful compared to those nasty European ones".
heavy cavalry engaging heavy cavalry - Alanus - 10-11-2013
Hey, Dan
Ann Hyland once wrote a National Geographic article about how a group of bone-age people used huge nets to catch rabbits. Coincidentally, or not, these neolithic characters lived on a hill just above a lake. How inextricably ODD! :woot: :whistle: