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+--- Thread: Leeuwen Pugio Help..... (/showthread.php?tid=22888)
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Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Doc - 07-14-2013
Hello All,
I will be doing a presentation on construction details of pugios, swords, and body armor. I would like to talk about the pugio specified in the title. Did the scabbard have a copper alloy back plate or was the scabbard simply copper alloy over wood without a metal back? Many pugios with type A scabbards have the wooden core of the scabbard covered in metal. However, it appears from some of the photos that the Leeuwen scabbard is only a front plate simply because the band that goes through the suspension rings goes into the front plate and it does not stop at the back.
Any help would be appreciated.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Palmerius2002 - 08-02-2013
HI;
I would learn to construct armor, helmets and other items.
Sounds like you really know what you are doing.
You might benefit from contacting the Higgins Armory Museum in Worcester, MA
they have a website and a directory contact the Director.
www.higgins.org
If your in England try contacting the Vindolanda Museum in Northumbria.
www.vindolanda.com
If your in Europe try contacting the Saalburg Musuem in Germany.
www.saalburgmuseum.de
if all else fails try the British Museum or
Georgetown University Department of Classics in Washington, DC.
Beyond that I have no idea.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Vindex - 08-02-2013
Pugio - Gladius Brevis Est by Marco Saliola and Fabrizio Casprini would be the ideal reference for you. There is a topic on RAT about this book and Marco is a member. I would add the link but my computer has died and my laptop is just not playing!!
The book is BAR International Series from 2404 from 2012.
Try contacting Marco directly.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - 66kbm - 08-02-2013
Images/pics would help for all to comment upon.
Kevin
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - PhilusEstilius - 08-03-2013
This side view of the scabbard looks to be a sharp edge that would suggest to me that it may well have a wood backing to it without any metal at the rear.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS - 08-03-2013
Brian, that's neat. I never have seen this view. Do you have anymore pix of this pugio??
Best, Marsh
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Crispvs - 08-03-2013
Annoyingly, I've never seen a back view of the Leeuwen sheath so I don't actually know if the back plate survives. However, without seeing it, I would be cautious about suggesting that it might not have had a back plate. Bear in mind that the front plate on a type 'A' sheath normally overlaps the back plate rather than meeting it edge to edge, so the sharp edge you mention might not have been such an unusual sight originally.
Crispvs
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Robert - 08-04-2013
Is the Leeuwen Pugio not in that book by Marco? I have it on order, but not recieved yet. It is in the RMO collection in Leiden.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - PhilusEstilius - 08-04-2013
Crispvs.
What makes me suggest there is no plate is from the fact that the rivet at the left end on the bottom hanger looks very much to be a modern one, and it can be seen below the scabbard at an angle and this could not be done I think if there was a plate there.
Then also as I have mentioned the side edge does appear to simply come to an end at the rear area that also suggests the plate just wraps around a wooden box that the blade went into, but of course as you say it would indeed be good to see a view of the rear of the scabbard.
Then having said that the museum or whoever did that picture put the dagger the wrong way around under the scabbard plate so why did they not also show the blade inside of it, for this is a common problem we get from all museums they never show the side of things we all want to see.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Robert - 08-04-2013
Personaly, I think the top plates have been solderen on to the guttering (outside) and then rivited. The sideview shows the lower topplate having been detatched from the guttering. If the back was done the same way, that would not exclude a backplate or plates. By the way, one of the descriptions I read said the dots had been driven into the plates from the back, but I recall Crispvs once commenting the dots were actually solderen on. I wonder if someone lives close enough to Leiden to be able to photograph the piece. I have just mailed the museum with an information request on this piece.
http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?/nl/items/RMO01:005102/&p=1&i=7&t=7&st=romeins%20dolk&sc=%28cql.serverChoice%20all%20romeins%20%20AND%20dolk%29/&wst=romeins dolk
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Doc - 08-04-2013
Hello Everyone,
I have been going round in Italy and just sat down to a computer. Thank you for the replies. I agree with Crispus that most likely there was a back plate. That is because the only thing visible appears to be the modern rivet the other ones are not. Thus they must have broken off or are peened towards the inside suggesting that they were holding onto something. Of all the type A pugio scabbards that I have seen, ALL have a back plate.
If you look at that side view, that dotted decoration is not punched into the rear of the front plate, rather they are soldered strips of those beads, as suggested by Crispus. If you look at the bead work, there is evidence around the edges of the beads of some silvery material.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - PhilusEstilius - 08-05-2013
Robert
I can't understand what you say about guttering and a lower plate becoming detatched for it is not and there is no guttering at all the whole scabbard plate appears to be one with the edges simply bent over with just a finished edge, I agree that the beading may be soldered to the plates but this beading has of course been hammered out of metal strips or other sheet brass.
That rivet that goes through the bottom end that is I think modern even has a rossete that does not belong to this scabbard for it is totally different to all the others.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Robert - 08-05-2013
You are correct and I was mistaken. I had taken the lifted portion to be a plate, when in fact it was part of the attachment for the lower ring. On those beads, I was wondering how this was done. The pictures I have do not have sufficient resolution to zoom in enough to make out details, but it looks like the beads were made by chiseling down on a bronze rod, although perhaps these where filed in, as the edges show rounding.
On the back plate, I hope to hear from the museum soon. I can see your point, but the plate may be compresed into the overlapping frontplate, as Crispvs suggested.
Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - PhilusEstilius - 08-05-2013
I have been looking at closer views of this scabbard and I begin to think that the beading is in fact punched out of the actual scabbard plate, and what is thought to be solder is indeed residue from what might appear to have been inlays inbetween the beading.
Indeed there is what may be some red paste inlay in the disc at the bottom of the scabbard and possible evidence of other inlays have been in the panels, the semi circular panel also shows what may also be red paste inlay.
This pic' gives a better view of the ring hangers that are simply made from a brass strip that has been cut 1/3 way down then spread, while at tthe rear there would only be one rivet going through the centre piece of the hanger and the other rivets bent over into maybe a wood backing.
RE: Leeuwen Pugio Help..... - Ptah - 12-02-2017
I came here more or less by accident and remembered I made pics in the RMO some years back.
Hope this helps.