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Legionaries with slings - Vexillation - 11-21-2013
Hello fellow romans, greeks, barbarians etc.
I have on numerous occations read that legionaries were trained to also use a sling, ancient warfare being generally "missile heavy". I have however not found any good source if this was actually the case. When studying legionary gear, the sling is never mentioned. Any light to shed on this?
Legionaries with slings - Robert - 11-21-2013
https://www.academia.edu/4107834/Early_Roman_military_equipment_from_the_fortified_settlements_in_the_Notranjska_region_SW_Slovenia_
Lots of slingshot documented here :-).
Legionaries with slings - Frank - 11-21-2013
Quote:Hello fellow romans, greeks, barbarians etc.
I have on numerous occations read that legionaries were trained to also use a sling, ancient warfare being generally "missile heavy". I have however not found any good source if this was actually the case. When studying legionary gear, the sling is never mentioned. Any light to shed on this?
IIRC Vegetius mentions the sling as a standard weapon for every soldier. As always with Vegetius, it is a bit unclear, which era he refers to.
The question also is, how well trained the normal soldier was with the sling. Afaik, it needs a lot of training to become a good slinger.
"Missile heavy" means more than just slings. The late roman army likely used more archers and more javelins with extended range. The short Lancea throwed with a kind of rope (armenta) and the plumbata comes to mind. Both missiles had an extended range compared to the old pilum. The extended range was perhaps beneficial against the usual cavalry attacks (not shock attack).
Legionaries with slings - Vexillation - 11-22-2013
Thank you for the replies.
"The question also is, how well trained the normal soldier was with the sling. Afaik, it needs a lot of training to become a good slinger." That is the same thing that has been going through my mind.
Legionaries with slings - mcbishop - 11-22-2013
Quote:The question also is, how well trained the normal soldier was with the sling.What Vegetius actually says (De Re Militari 1.16) is that all soldiers were trained in the use of the sling, which is different from saying they all habitually used it. Hadrian even mentions cavalrymen(!) using them whilst riding on the Lambaesis adlocutio inscription. Anyone can use a sling so that they are at least dangerous (not necessarily to just the enemy!), but it takes a lifetime to make them deadly accurate, a point made by Bill Griffiths in his article on the subject.*
Mike Bishop
*W. B. Griffiths 1989: 'The sling and its place in the Roman imperial army', in: C. van Driel-Murray (ed.), Roman Military Equipment: The Sources of Evidence. Proceedings of the Fifth ROMEC, BAR S476, Oxford 255-79
Legionaries with slings - S. Marcer - 11-22-2013
Hello Joakim!
if it can be useful, in addition to the works mentioned above this is a bit 'of bibliography (certainly not complete) about the "ammunition" and use of the sling in the ancient world
Bosman, A.V.A.J. (1995) Pouring lead in the pouring rain, making slingshot under battle conditions.
Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies, 6: 99-103.
Brélaz, C. (2007) Des balles de fronde à Daskyléion: armes de guerre ou armes de chasse? Anatolia
Antiqua, 15: 71-82.
Brélaz, C., Ducrey, P. (2003) Une grappe de balles de fronde en plomb à Érétrie. La technique de fabrication
des projectiles et l’usage de la fronde en Grèce ancienne. Antike Kunst, 46: 99-113.
Cerchiai, C. (1984) Le glandes plumbeae della Collezione Gorga. Bullettino della Commissione Archeologica
Comunale di Roma, 88: 191-211.
Greep, S.J. (1987) Lead Sling-Shot from Windridge Farm, St Albans and the use of the Sling by the
Roman Army in Britain. Britannia, 18: 183-200.
Grunfeld, F. (1996) The Unsung Sling. Military History Quarterly, 9 (1): 51-55.
Hellmann, M.C. (1982) Collection Froehner: balles de fronde grecques. Bulletin de correspondance
hellénique, 106, 1: 75-87.
Henry, B.M. (1972) La fronde en Italie du VIIe siècle avant J.-C. à l’Empire Romain. Diplôme École
pratique des hautes études (EPHE), I-II. Paris
–– (1975-76) La fronde chez les Celtes: les projectiles et leur utilisation. Bull. Angers, 2: 17-24.
–– (1978) Les Balles de fronde étrusques en plomb. Congrès national des sociétés savantes, Lille, 1976:
9-19.
Korfmann, M. (1973) The Sling as a weapon. Scientific American, 229 (4): 34-42.
Py, M., Guyard, L. (1999) Un moule à balles de fronde inscrit d’époque républicaine à Paris (rue Saint-
Martin). Bull. Instrumentum, 9, juin 1999: 29-30.
Richardson, T. (1998) Ballistic Testing of the Sling. Royal Armouries Yearbook, 3: 44-49.
Völling, T. (1990) Funditores im römischen Heer. Saalburg-Jahrbuch, 45: 24-58.
Vutiropulos, N. (1991) The Sling in the Aegean Bronze Age. Antiquity, 65: 280-284.
Very Best!
S.M.
Legionaries with slings - Robert - 11-22-2013
I have wondered about the amount of training it would really need to be effective. Not a true marksman that can hit a plate at 30 yards consistantly, but the level of skill needed to send a projectile downrange at speed at a mansized target. Hitting an arm or a leg with 30-50 grams of fast moving lead will certainly ruin your day. There are different ways of casting, many twirl the sling around overhead, but I have read some accounts on slinging.org where a marksman who also hunts with a sling makes just a single stroke. It was stated all the twirling just makes things more difficult and for hunting is totaly impractical, as one want to get a shot off pronto. Like in golf, it is all about mechanics and achieving clubhead/payload speed, both the sling and the club being extentions of the arm, amplifying the speed at the end. This can be done both overhand and underhand.
Like with the bow and the atlatl (throwing stick for small spears), the basics and some degree of accuracy can be achieved within a few days of practice, after that, it is just honing the skill to become more and more accurate.
Legionaries with slings - Koyuncu - 11-22-2013
I don't think it is needed to be well trained slinger to hit a large mass of enemy units. The mass effect of missiles can be used to harass or break enemy formations rather than in manner of one shot one kill. Also, it would be much easier to use against enemy cavalry since rider and horse present a good tall target. So far all seems good but I can't imagine how legionaries could use slings in their rather tight formation. Each slinger needs considerable room for swinging. Maybe they change their formation accordingly but I am not aware of any historical record of it.
Legionaries with slings - Frank - 11-22-2013
Quote:So far all seems good but I can't imagine how legionaries could use slings in their rather tight formation. Each slinger needs considerable room for swinging. Maybe they change their formation accordingly but I am not aware of any historical record of it.
I doubt, they used it during a big battle. At least I never have read something about it. I could imagine, that the last 2 lines went a step back and get the room to use a sling, but that sounds weird, too. However legionairs had more duties than fighting in big battles. In this case, e.g. while patrolling and/or chasing small raids and gangs, the sling might come handy.
Legionaries with slings - M. Demetrius - 11-22-2013
It takes less room than one might think to swirl a sling and release a stone. Don't mis-think that the Romans would have done this activity "standing in an overlapping shield wall". Most folks don't believe that would be the case, until very late times. An overhand or an underhand windup isn't that space intensive. Try it.
Legionaries with slings - Flavivs Aetivs - 11-22-2013
Kent, our engineer, is an expert slinger. It's cool,
Legionaries with slings - M. Demetrius - 11-23-2013
Quote:Frank: I doubt, they used it during a big battle.Well, Caesar evidently used a considerable number of slingers when fighting Pompey, so much that Pompey's men wove wicker frames to go over their helmets. They had some big battles. Just sayin'
Legionaries with slings - Frank - 11-23-2013
Quote:Quote:Frank: I doubt, they used it during a big battle.Well, Caesar evidently used a considerable number of slingers when fighting Pompey, so much that Pompey's men wove wicker frames to go over their helmets. They had some big battles. Just sayin'
Were these dedicated auxiliary slingers or legionairs using a sling as a secondary weapon? I was referring to the latter ones.
Legionaries with slings - jkaler48 - 11-26-2013
I get the impression that slings were very useful both in defense of fortifications and in supporting attacks on them.
Legionaries with slings - Paul Elliott - 11-26-2013
I'm a slinger... a couple of lessons can teach a person (like my son) to sling stones 'at an area' 70m distant. Hitting a man-sized target at that range is very very very hard, point attacks are more realistic at closer ranges (ie. under 40m).