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+--- Thread: \"Winged\" roman spear blades? (/showthread.php?tid=22342)
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - Virilis - 03-19-2013
Hi there!
This picture of the Piazza Armerina late roman hunt mosaic got me thinking:
http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/huntboar.jpg
It seems that there are "stoppers" (wings) on the spear point shaft to prevent it to sinking too deeply into the target. I have never seen any roman spear tips with "wings" like these, although they are common in other cultures / different eras. It seems to me that romans used this technique at least in hunting. What do you think?
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - jho - 03-19-2013
I do not know how far back the use of winged hunting spears (in German „Saufeder“) goes, but they appear to be common finds in Roman upper class graves in Gaul and Germania beginning with the early 4th century AD (see Renate Pirling, Margareta Siepen, Die Funde aus den römischen Gräbern von Krefeld-Gellep, Katalog der Gräber 6348-6361, 2006, pp. 400). It appears that some are richly decorated with the wings sculpted as animal heads and they are therefore considered more as status symbols than weapons for actual use.
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - Virilis - 03-19-2013
Thanks Jens :-) !
I have to find an example of one of these spears. It would be cool to have such a spear blade with my 4th c. AD impression.
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - jho - 03-19-2013
Quote:I have to find an example of one of these spears. It would be cool to have such a spear blade with my 4th c. AD impression.
The text of Pirling is online here
The plate with a picture of the spear from Krefeld-Gellep (1st half 4th cent) is here
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - Virilis - 03-19-2013
Thank you, Jens!
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - Conal - 03-20-2013
Quote:Quote:I have to find an example of one of these spears. It would be cool to have such a spear blade with my 4th c. AD impression.
The text of Pirling is online here
The plate with a picture of the spear from Krefeld-Gellep (1st half 4th cent) is here
Cant seem to get the details on those links but found this with a similar shape to that on the mosaic;
http://dorfschmied.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/meisterschmiede-aus-der-steiermark-im-hufschmiede-kreativbewerb/saufeder/
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - Epictetus - 03-20-2013
Quote:It seems that there are "stoppers" (wings) on the spear point shaft to prevent it to sinking too deeply into the target.
Question from a non-military guy here: Why would you want to prevent it from sinking too deeply into the target? I can see the reasoning behind those little points on a trident or the flared head on an arrow to prevent them from slipping out (or creating even more damage when removed), but why would you want to stop it from going too far into the body?
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - Macedon - 03-20-2013
Sometimes, wild boar charge with such rage and speed and their impetus is so great that they may actually get pierced through by a normal spear and still get to the wielder, like sometimes heroes do in the movies... These stoppers were supposed to make them stop.
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - koechlyruestow - 03-20-2013
They may have been military spears, though.
I cannot for the moment remember where, but I have read an article by a researcher who claimed that it was a mistake to identify the function of the late Roman/early medieval wings with that of the stoppers of the hunting spear. He believed these wings had a function in a fencing type of spear fighting, but his story did not make clear to me how exactly that would have worked.
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - Ammianus - 03-21-2013
Quote: These stoppers were supposed to make them stopYes, ideally they will jam into the shoulderblades of the boar.
Read "On Hunting" by Xenophon for more insights into using boar spears.
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/x/xenophon/x5hu/complete.html
From the text:
"The boar-spears should in the first place have blades fifteen inches long, and in the middle of the socket two solid projecting teeth of wrought metal, and shafts of cornel-wood a spear-shaft’s thickness."
&
"Should the animal for all that rain of javelins and stones refuse to stretch the skirting-rope, should he rather relax in that direction and make a right-about-face turn bearing down on his assailant, there is nothing for it, under these circumstances, but to seize a boar-spear, and advance; firmly clutching it with the left hand forward and with the right behind; the left is to steady it, and the right to give it impulse; and so the feet, the left advanced in correspondence with the left arm, and right with right. As he advances, he will make a lunge forward with the boar-spear, planting his legs apart not much wider than in wrestling, and keeping his left side turned towards his left hand; and then, with his eye fixed steadily on the beast’s eye, he will note every turn and movement of the creature’s head. As he brings down the boar-spear to the thrust, he must take good heed the animal does not knock it out of his hands by a side movement of the head;30 for if so he will follow up the impetus of that rude knock. In case of that misfortune, the huntsman must throw himself upon his face and clutch tight hold of the brushwood under him, since if the wild boar should attack him in that posture, owing to the upward curve of its tusks, it cannot get under him; whereas if caught erect, he must be wounded. What will happen then is, that the beast will try to raise him up, and failing that will stand upon and trample him."
mile:
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - M. Val. Naso - 03-22-2013
I have yet to see winged spearheads in a non-hunting military context. Wings would mean a distinct disadvantage on the battlefield: harder to thrust around the enemy's shield, easier for him to parry with his own weapon, harder to pull back due to the wings hanging on to clothes/shields.
\"Winged\" roman spear blades? - koechlyruestow - 03-22-2013
You mean you believe all these "winged" lance-heads to have been hunting weapons? All of them?
Seems to me they have found a bit too many of them to be all hunting weapons. Especially considering the fact that they are depicted in Caroligian and Ottonian art as military weapons, it seems very likely they were used in battle.
It is a mystery to me too, Mark. Anyone any thoughts on how one could have wielded such a weapon, on horseback, and carrying a fairly large round, domed shield in the left hand?
One researcher claimed the wings proved the use of the couched lance, as this technique would have necessitated "stoppers" to prevent the spear-head from entering the body too deep. Fortunately for him, I do not remember his name either, I only mentioned this fruity theory to cheer you up.
RE: \"Winged\" roman spear blades? - George44 - 01-01-2021
(03-19-2013, 06:04 PM)Virilis Wrote: Thanks Jens :-) !If you still looking for one let me know. I got one,
I have to find an example of one of these spears. It would be cool to have such a spear blade with my 4th c. AD impression.