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Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Helvetus - 02-26-2013
Hi,
Sorry if this is a common question, but I can't find anything satisfying using the search engine.
Could somebody points me towards sources or evidences of shield patterns and paintings for the republic and/or imperial period, if anything like this even exist?
I read that a "Notitia Dignitatum" book lists emblems and shield for Late Roman period, and I was wondering if anything similar might be available for earlier designs.
I am starting to dream about my future costume, pondering all the timeframes options and possibilities, and I have to admit I am not eagerly fan of the 2-3 commons shield paintings one can see everywhere, red with the yellow bolts and wings, etc.
I doubt that all the legions had the same "heraldic" signs for so long, had they?
Thanks in advance for your time and help.
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-26-2013
I don't know, although I know certain legions were raised under certain emperors who assigned them certain standards.
e.g. Legio VI Ferrata had the Wolf and Twins, and Legio V Makedonika had a Bull.
But we know these symbols had changed by the time of the Notitia Dignitatum.
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - jvrjenivs - 02-26-2013
Best get a look into Phil Barker's 'Armies and Allies of Imperial Rome'
http://www.scribd.com/doc/29392009/Armies-and-Enemies-of-Imperial-Rome
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Helvetus - 02-27-2013
Thanks for the links Jvrenivs, still quite a lot of thunderbolts and wings, but some other designs indeed and more choices.
I bought and skipped quickly yesterday night through Legions of Rome: The definitive history of every Roman legion, by Stephen Dando-Collins, Kindle edition, where he seems to provide an emblem for every legion (with a lot of "probably" though…).
It is a very interesting subject, I'll try to dig deeper
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Tarbicus - 02-27-2013
Dando-Collins is your worst source for information. Do a RAT search on him, using the 'Any date' option under the 'Find Posts from' dropdown menu.
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Helvetus - 02-27-2013
Ahah, thanks Tarbicus, it is always good to know. I should have asked, but hey, I am a bookaholic…
I was yet a bit suspicious yesterday, but today I see what you mean, as the information in the book doesn't seem to be backed by anything, and there is indeed an awful lot of "probably".
The quest continues… :wink:
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Jori - 02-27-2013
Beware of personnal shields if you want to join a group.
You must know that the majority of reenactment groups do not authorize these.
The reason is quite simple : it's the only thing a bit standardized in a roman legion. Everyone of your unit has the same shield, or at least, the main patterns.
Yes I know, it's frustrating
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - jvrjenivs - 02-27-2013
Quote:The reason is quite simple : it's the only thing a bit standardized in a roman legion. Everyone of your unit has the same shield, or at least, the main patterns.
Do we actually know that for sure? I'm conviced such a system was used by the late Roman army as described in the Notitia, but I don't know of much hard proof for the republican and imperial period.
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-27-2013
Actually I'm still not so sure of that. I'm certain there was personalization in the ND as well, because a lot of the shields have plenty of space around their main symbol that someone could paint in.
I believe that whoever originally did the Notitia used parts of the shield that were consistent for most of the unit in the ND.
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Helvetus - 02-27-2013
Sorry if it is a sensitive subject, and please bear with the poor novice (and my english level…
), but it is my understanding that we have only a handful of shields representations, so the assumptions and hypothesis of Dando-Collins (unless obviously proven wrong) about symbols and emblems are somewhat as good as others?I would say that a group re-enacting a legio and using the common red with bolts and wings shield without any sure evidence of its use is somewhat equally "wrong", isn't it?
I mean, for example, he says that the 1st adiutrix legio has a pegasus for emblem and put a proposed drawing. Is it complete bullshit hypothesis? Is there really no known evidence that says what legion used what?
Or when he says than Legio XV Primigenia "probably" used a Wheel of Fortune? It could be wrong, it could be right, but as re-enactors, the red-wings-bolt is perhaps equally wrong, isn't it?
Again, please be indulgent with my honest questions… :whistle:
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Helvetus - 02-27-2013
And sorry for the double post, butI am not sure if I am clear enough; for example if we are relatively sure that the XXI rapax used a capricorn as emblem, it would not be a terrible stretch to design a shield based on a capricorn, even if we don't have factual proof of the said shield?
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Helvetus - 02-28-2013
And just to add fuel to the fire… a similar discussion started here 6 years ago:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/20-roman-re-enactment-a-reconstruction/78574-roman-shield-emblem-database.html?limitstart=0
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-28-2013
You're technically right Helvetus, it's just that the guy isn't the best author on the subject.
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Nathan Ross - 02-28-2013
Quote:it is my understanding that we have only a handful of shields representations, so the assumptions and hypothesis of Dando-Collins (unless obviously proven wrong) about symbols and emblems are somewhat as good as others?... It could be wrong, it could be right, but as re-enactors, the red-wings-bolt is perhaps equally wrong, isn't it?
Some legions had animal 'totems', carried on standards (as seen on Trajan's column) or sometimes apearing on coinage minted for that legion. There are also some depictions of shields showing animals, notably those on the Arch of Orange with a capicorn and pegasus, very similar to designs carved much later by Legion II Augusta in Britain.
The idea that these 'totem' animals might have been used more widely on shields was first put forward (or maybe popularised?) by Ross Cowan in one of the Osprey 'Roman Legionary' books. It's a reasonable suggestion. However, we don't have any evidence that this was done - in fact, we have only slight evidence that individual legions used unique shield designs.
What Stephen Dando-Collins does in his book is to take this idea and sort of run with it, producing hypothetical 'totem'-based designs for every legion. Trouble is, the designs he comes up with don't, for the most part, resemble anything known from the evidence. The problem so many people have with D-C is that he takes these ideas and possibilities and states them as if they're established facts.
The 'thunderbolt' design is at least depicted on Trajan's column (and the Adamklissi reliefs, and elsewhere) in use by legionaries in the early 2nd century. So we can be reasonably sure that such a design was used, at that time, by the Roman army - not so much of a leap of the imagination. The only original painted Roman shields we have (from Dura Europos, c.250) are completely different, and don't show thunderbolts at all. So it might simply have been a matter of fashion...
Shield patterns, symbols and paintings? - Helvetus - 02-28-2013
Thanks Nathan, you have just wrote what my internet searches and readings of the evening let me to believe: that a certain confusion was maintained or possible (at least in my head :grin: ) between the different terms like emblems, standards, symbols and their latin equivalents like signum and vexillum, and than this author was playing with it.
Quote:There are also some depictions of shields showing animals, notably those on the Arch of Orange with a capicorn and pegasus, very similar to designs carved much later by Legion II Augusta in Britain.
Thanks for the tip, I'll try to have a look.
So, if I try to summary: basically, a legion having a boar as emblem does not mean they painted it on their shield. It might be, but we don't know. And all these ubiquitous awful "wings and bolts" designs variations come because of the soldiers paid to be models for the Trajan Column, but as it is all we have "for sure", the majority of re-enactors go with it? :-P