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Cohort commander? - Printable Version

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Cohort commander? - D B Campbell - 01-12-2013

Quote:App. civ. 5,46
This simply says that it was traditional for a tribune to deliver the daily register to the commander when fetching the password. (iirc Polybius says much the same thing.)


Quote:Stauner says not, that centurions, tribunes and legates go to the governor. He just says tribunes and legates in his german translation. Perhaps a little dispute about subtleties of the greek grammar? Even legates plus tribunes makes just sense, if all are in the same camp accidentally. But all centurions of 3-4 legions (180-240 men) going to the province governor every morning? Sounds weird, 20-30 legates and tribunes, like Stauner says, are heavy enough imho.
Josephus simply refers to the tribunes communicating with the commander. It is true that ἡγεμών, in technical language, can mean consul (and hence consular governor), but not (imho) in this instance. Here, τὸν ἡγεμόνα τῶν ὅλων just means "the commander of the entire camp" (as Josephus is describing how a Roman army encamps). Translated to a legionary fortress, that would be the legate, not the provincial governor. Presumably the governor has already communicated with his legionary legates.


Cohort commander? - D B Campbell - 01-12-2013

Quote:Somebody speaks french please, and could tell us, what this guy says on the bottom of page 348 about this cohort?
I thought French was your third language, Frank! Wink

Fanoula Papazoglou (I think she's a she!) thinks it's a stone-cutting error. "One would expect to read at this point in the inscription a determinative such as veterana, miliaria, equitata." "Could it be a misreading, by a Greek stonecutter, of the sign for miliaria followed by two letters (EQ?)."

It certainly looks very odd to me. Given that the cohors I Hispanorum is also known in the province, it may be this cohort.


Cohort commander? - Frank - 01-12-2013

Quote:Josephus simply refers to the tribunes communicating with the commander. It is true that ἡγεμών, in technical language, can mean consul (and hence consular governor), but not (imho) in this instance. Here, τὸν ἡγεμόνα τῶν ὅλων just means "the commander of the entire camp" (as Josephus is describing how a Roman army encamps). Translated to a legionary fortress, that would be the legate, not the provincial governor. Presumably the governor has already communicated with his legionary legates.

Well the commander of a camp, if a multi-legion-camp, which seems to be the case here, is either the Legatus Augusti pro praetore/consulare and province governor, or the emperor himself or a special legate / family member leading the campaign. If the camp is just about 1 legion plus auxilia the commander is the Legatus legionis which is now the one and only legate in camp and it makes no sense that legates (plural!) and tribunes are going to the commander. But perhaps Stauner did translate something wrong.

However the important point for me is not, who was the commander, it is that the centurions forward the daily report to the tribunes. Not directly to the Legate and also not via the Pilus Prior. And Appian confirms exactly this part of the process and the tribunes role.

When we started this discussion I was willing to believe, that the Centurio Pilus Prior leaded the cohort. In the meantime i prefer this other model: The 5 tribunes leaded 2 brigaded cohors in daily business. On the battlefield perhaps the same or even more flexible. If we consider, that the Tribunus Militum of imperial times, latest from the mid 1st century on, was no rookie anymore, like he often was in late republic, that makes much sense.

PS: Yes, french was my 3rd language. After 2 years I dropped it like a hot potatoe, as soon as I was allowed to do so. Ancient Greek would have been the better choice for me.


Cohort commander? - D B Campbell - 01-12-2013

Quote:Well the commander of a camp, if a multi-legion-camp, which seems to be the case here, is either the Legatus Augusti pro praetore/consulare and province governor, or the emperor himself or a special legate / family member leading the campaign. If the camp is just about 1 legion plus auxilia the commander is the Legatus legionis which is now the one and only legate in camp and it makes no sense that legates (plural!) and tribunes are going to the commander. But perhaps Stauner did translate something wrong.
Let's forget Stauner. Josephus mentions only centurions reporting to tribunes, and tribunes reporting to the commander (legate). (Note also that this section of Josephus is a general description of the Roman camp, so we cannot say whether he means a multi-legion camp -- as you would prefer -- or any other kind of camp.)


Quote:When we started this discussion I was willing to believe, that the Centurio Pilus Prior leaded the cohort. In the meantime i prefer this other model: The 5 tribunes leaded 2 brigaded cohors in daily business. On the battlefield perhaps the same or even more flexible. If we consider, that the Tribunus Militum of imperial times, latest from the mid 1st century on, was no rookie anymore, like he often was in late republic, that makes much sense.
Unfortunately, neither scenario has any evidence to support it.


Cohort commander? - Frank - 01-13-2013

Quote:Unfortunately, neither scenario has any evidence to support it.

I agree regarding the Pilus Prior. Regarding the Tribunes, we have at least the information, that they forwarded reports and orders from centurio to the legate and back. Thats not a proof, but more than nothing.


Cohort commander? - Marja - 01-13-2013

So assuming the tribunes command groups of two cohorts each, who commands what in 4-3-3 formation?


Cohort commander? - Frank - 01-13-2013

Quote:So assuming the tribunes command groups of two cohorts each, who commands what in 4-3-3 formation?

Good question. Thats why i said "2 cohors in peacetime and perhaps more flexible on the battlefield".
Actually we don't know! Perhaps

3 tribunes commanding the 3 lines
1 tribune back in the camp organizing the defense over there
1 tribune on a special mission with the 120 equites legionis
2 tribunes back in province capital with 500 other guys running the province
1 is sickening for the measles

This alone is enough for 8 tribunes of 5. And the list goes on. It seems, that it is a not appropriate to think in our clear defined and rather rigid modern structures, if it comes to the roman army.

Even in peacetime, 2 cohors per tribune does not fit, if we look to the special role, structure and perhaps lead of the 1st cohort. Perhaps we have just 3 tribunes leading 3 cohors each and the other 2 do something else.

There is no proof, that the tribunes leaded the cohorts, but the 4-3-3 formation or any other formation disproves nothing.


Cohort commander? - M. Demetrius - 01-13-2013

We've already agreed that we don't know, so let's make sure our comments are not too didactic.

It's always fine to have an opinion, we all have 'em. On RAT at least, it's not OK to be disparaging. This conversation could easily take an easy turn. Let's be calm, friends. The thread was never intended to become an argument. All good?


Cohort commander? - antiochus - 01-17-2013

Hello Mark,

First Mark I would like to apologise for the lateness in my reply but I’m recovering from an illness.

Mark wrote:
I am not, however, desirous to comment on your astrological or cosmological view(s), that I have seen expounded here before, due to a firm logical and deductive basis for believing that military structures are based primarily on battlefield tactical deployments due to weapons usage and operational requirements of military command and control, with a good dose of common sense and occasional bouts of historical comfort.

I want to point out that although the Romans adhered to the laws of their cosmos system, they could be pragmatic within the system. For the campaign of 495 BC, Dionysius (VI 26) states the senate deliberated about “what forces were to be taken in the field.” This comment, informs us the Romans had a number of options regarding the distribution of the army. Throughout the history of the republic, depending on the strategic situation, the Romans can mobilise legions of 40 centuries, 50 centuries, 60 centuries and emergency legions. Therefore, they have many military options at their disposal. The primary sources also inform us the Romans rearmed their men or copied the equipment of their enemies, which highlights the fact that being interlocked with their cosmos did not prevent the introduction of new or better technology, nor prevent them from undertaking internal legion organisational changes.

Mark wrote:
From all that I have been able to discover and unless I have been mislead; there seem to be only 5 main sources <snip> and looking at the period after Livy's strange early legion breakdown; they being: Polybius; Josephus; 'Hyginus'; and Vegetius;


If I was to be critical of Livy’s legion description I would castigate him for a lack of nouns. Livy’s legion description goes into more depth concerning the legion’s many organisational levels than Polybius does. Both have made simple mistakes, what one leaves out the other includes, but when they are corrected, the Livy legion and the Polybius legion is actually one and the same. Polybius’ mistake is very obvious; he claims the velites came from the poorer classes. Now there are six property classes in Dionysius’ version of the Servian constitution and five in Livy. However, Polybius states a legion consists of men from four classes…so who are Polybius’s poorer classes? And that is the crux of the problem…Polybius is confused on this very issue.

Mark wrote:
No cohort structure is mentioned and there are no commanders of such detailed.

Livy’s first uses the term “cohort” in Book 2, for the year 508 BC, with a further 21 examples between Books 2 to 5. Dionysius’ first use of ‘cohort’ occurs in Book 7 for the year 488 BC, with another 16 examples found in Books 8 to 11. I have not undertaken a study to find out how many pre-Marian ancient historians use the term cohort but it would amount to a lot of references. How is it that modern historians cannot reached a consensus on the size and organisation of the pre-Marian legions (4000 men, 5000 men, 5200 men, 5400 men, 6000 men, 6200 men or an emergency legion) but are adamant there is no cohort structure? I find that bewildering. So why would Livy state that two senators commanded a cohort if there is no cohort structure?

The cohort is one organisation found in the Roman legion and sometimes on the battlefield the cohort organisation is unsuitable, whereas the tribune command organisation is. However, Livy’s (32 17) reference to Roman cohorts sent one after another to attack a breach in the wall at Atrax is a good example of when the cohort organisation is the ideal organisation for this type of job. So because a legion has three organisational levels, something Livy is trying to explain in his legion description, there is an organisation level suited for a particular need.

Mark wrote:
It's no good - I'll have to write - perhaps by the end of the month if I try.


Good luck. I’ve finished writing. I took Professor Ridley’s advice knowing when to stop and pulled the plug on researching the Roman camp and the cosmos. The Romans are definitely modelling the camp on the cosmos but its trying to unravel the religious orientation methodology behind the changes to the camp’s layout that requires more time than I want to invest.

Anyway, I have 430 pages that faithfully follow the primary sources, and with the empirical date found in the primary sources (and there is a lot) I can show that cohorts existed right back to the Servian constitution and besides centurions, senators and later prefects commanded Roman cohorts.


Steven


Cohort commander? - Renatus - 01-17-2013

Quote:I’ve finished writing . . . I have 430 pages that faithfully follow the primary sources
Does this mean that we may expect to see your theories fully expounded in an orderly and logical manner with illustrative material, rather than piecemeal, as they have emerged so far? If so, is there any indication of when? Only then do I think that I will have any prospect of understanding them.


Cohort commander? - Burzum - 01-17-2013

As a whole century that was commanded by a centurion.

The second in command would of been an optio and he would of been assisted by certain personal within cohort ranks.

The primus pilus was actually first in command of first cohort (earlier first maniple).

The primus pilus was adviser to the lēgātus.

For the other cohorts they all had 6 centuries with a centurion, optio and tesserariusin in charge of each.

The pilus prior was in command of each cohort and was an elected centurion right underneath primus pilus during battle.

THe other cohorts generally fell underneath first cohort who carried the eagle and lead by primus pilus who had authority of each of the other 6 cohorts.

When it comes to the actual organization here, one needs to be aware that you need assistance and people in command to answer to the primus pilus to orchestrate the other cohorts when the primus pilus was with the first cohort in battle. But take this into consideration, the first cohort wasn't the first flank to engage and they only had one javelin unit. And they were 8 centuries of triari which actually served as a personal guard to the tribune (e.g. Legatus Augusti pro praetore, Legatus legionis, Tribuni angusticlavii).

That's why the best centurions were issued the rank of pilus prior to command other cohorts in battle.

In peace time... this really starts delving into uncharted fog of war. I can only presume that prior pilus maintained a role in keeping things orderly within other cohorts.


Cohort commander? - M. Demetrius - 01-18-2013

Quote:For the other cohorts they all had 6 centuries
Didn't this number change over the course of the years?


Cohort commander? - Burzum - 01-18-2013

Quote:
Quote:For the other cohorts they all had 6 centuries
Didn't this number change over the course of the years?

An increase was introduced to the first cohort of legions by Augustus.

Legion size increased slowly and as these increased a gradual marital decline took place and ultimately population started to diminish.

This may have played an important role in undermining the empire.

That by the time of emperor Valentinian in the battles against Atilla the Hun he had a shortage of men to defend the borders against Celts, Teutons, Goths, and the Huns.


Cohort commander? - Nathan Ross - 01-18-2013

Quote:In general, cohorts of Roman citizens had tribunes in command.

This is actually an interesting point. If we accept, following Fronto, that a centurion was equal to an (auxiliary) cohort prefect, and that citizen auxiliary cohorts were commanded by men of the next rank (ie tribunes), then officially speaking (!) a centurion of any grade may have lacked the authority to command a legionary cohort. Only, perhaps, if the cohort was detached and the centurion in question given the temporary position of praepositus, which would raise his acting rank slightly?

Perhaps this is the reasoning behind those strangely composed vexillations, with men drawn from different centuriae and different cohorts, all banded together? That way, they wouldn't officially be a cohort, so could be placed under the command of a mere centurion! This seems an incredibly fussy and legalistic distinction, but the Romans were rather given to fussy legalisms...


Cohort commander? - Robert Vermaat - 01-18-2013

Quote:That by the time of emperor Valentinian in the battles against Atilla the Hun he had a shortage of men to defend the borders against Celts, Teutons, Goths, and the Huns.
I beg your pardon?? Defend the borders against Celts?? :? :???: :???:
Teutons is such a 19th c. name.. please use Germanics or something like that: Goths, Vandals, Franks.