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Cohort commander? - D B Campbell - 01-29-2013
Quote:In 423 BC Livy describes a decurion leading a cavalry cohort into battle. With an infantry cohort made up of six centuries and with five cavalry allocated to each century, a cavalry cohort equates to 30 men. Now because there are 10 cohorts to a legion, there can be 10 cohorts of cavalry each at 30 men etc. etc. etc.This all very interesting, I'm sure -- but the topic of the thread was the imperial legionary cohort, and why there appears to be no commander. Do you have anything relevant to contribute?
Quote:Mr Campbell wrote: Out of hundreds of known centurial careers from the period of the Principate, not a single man ever claims to have commanded his cohort, but only his century.Well that is because centurions command centuries!I meant, do you have anything constructive to contribute?
Cohort commander? - Renatus - 01-29-2013
Quote:In 423 BC Livy describes a decurion leading a cavalry cohort into battle. With an infantry cohort made up of six centuries and with five cavalry allocated to each century, a cavalry cohort equates to 30 men. Now because there are 10 cohorts to a legion, there can be 10 cohorts of cavalry each at 30 men. Therefore, an ancient historian is correct in labelling 30 cavalrymen a squadron or a cohort.I assume that you are thinking of Livy 4.38.1-3 and 4.39.1. The first reads:
Nihil nec imperium nec maiestas valebat, dataque mox terga hostibus forent, ni Sex. Tempanius, decurio equitum, labante iam re praesenti animo subvenisset. Qui cum magna voce exclamasset ut equites qui salvam rem publicam vellent esse ex equis desilirent, omnium turmarum equitibus velut ad consulis imperium motis,"Nisi haec" inquit, "parmata cohors sistit impetum hostium, actum de imperio est . . .”
and translates as:
'There was no virtue either in his authority or in his dignity; and his men would presently have shown the enemy their backs, had not a cavalry decurion named Sextus Tempanius, just as the situation was becoming desperate, come with prompt courage to the rescue. In a loud voice he cried out that the horsemen who wished to save the state should leap down from their horses, and when the troopers in every squadron had bestirred themselves as if at the command of the consul, he added: "Unless this bucklered cohort stops the enemy's rush it is all over with our supremacy . . .”' (Loeb translation)
The second reads:
Et cum iam parte nulla sustinerentur, dat signum Volscus imperator ut parmatis, novae cohorti hostium, locus detur, donec impetu inlati ab suis excludantur.
and translates as:
'When the Volscian general saw that their attack could not anywhere be stopped, he ordered his troops to give ground to the men with bucklers, the enemy's new cohort, until, carried forward in their rush, they should be cut off from their friends.' (Loeb translation)
It seems clear that this decurion did not command a cavalry cohort as such but that the so-called cohort was an ad hoc grouping of men from all turmae fighting as infantry. "Cohort" here, therefore, is probably used generically for a band of men, rather than as a technical term. Turma appears to be the appropriate term for a troop of horse. In the second passage, "cohort" may be used in a technical sense, although it could be rhetorical, but in context it refers to men fighting as infantry, not cavalry.
It would be dangerous to assume from this that there was any such thing as a cavalry cohort or to ascribe any particular number of men to it.
Cohort commander? - Kegluneq - 01-29-2013
Quote:I assume that you are thinking of Livy 4.38.1-3 and 4.39.1.Thanks for posting the Latin there - it makes it far clearer than the English translation does exactly what was happening, i.e. that a cavalry turma underwent a transition into an infantry cohort. I think that 'cohort' is used here to refer to a specific style of fighting, presumably carried out by a dismounted group much larger than a single century.
Cohort commander? - M. Demetrius - 01-29-2013
Quote:It would be dangerous to assume from this that there was any such thing as a cavalry cohort or to ascribe any particular number of men to it.Particularly from an ad hoc change of strategy. Very interesting that the cavalry fully understood infantry tactics and how to use them to advantage. Obviously, cavalry and infantry had very different function. Off hats to these intrepid cavalrymen!
Wonder if their horses ran off...
Could one conclude that the word "cohort" sometimes was a generic name for a group of soldiers (in this case cavalry), and not always the standard group of centuria?
Cohort commander? - C Crastinus - 01-30-2013
Salvete omnes,
I'm usually just a lurker in fora, but I thought I'd jump in here.
Quote:[quote]Could one conclude that the word "cohort" sometimes was a generic name for a group of soldiers (in this case cavalry), and not always the standard group of centuria?
The word cohors originally referred to a pen or enclosure of some sort, but was used figuratively to refer to those that were enclosed, and was commonly used to refer to a multitude of indeterminate number, so I would answer your question in the affirmative.
L&S lists "a troop of cavalry" as an alternate definition, giving Pliny the Younger as a source. I decided to look up the citation and found:
10.106
C. Plinius Trajano imperatori
Rogatus, domine, a P. Accio Aquila, centurione cohortis sextae equestris, ut mitterem tibi libellum per quem indulgentiam pro statu filiae suae implorat, durum putavi negare, cum scirem quantam soleres militum precibus patientiam humanitatemque praestare.
10.107
Trajanus Plinio
Libellum P. Accii Aquilae, centurionis sextae equestris, quem mihi misisti, legi; cujus precibus motus dedi filiae ejus civitatem Romanam. Libellum rescriptum, quem illi redderes, misi tibi.
Being still wet behind the ears, I hesitate to criticize the venerable L&S, but does this actually refer to a centurion in a mixed auxiliary cohors equitata, rather than a cavalry troop?
The fact that the centurion is asking for citizenship for his daughter made me initially think that it must be an auxiliary unit, but since soldiers were still forbidden from marrying at this point, his daughter would have been illegitimate, therefore lacking citizenship, unless I'm mistaken, so I guess that proves nothing.
The abbreviated praenomen suggests that the centurion was a citizen, although I'm not sure if that nomenclatural convention was still current in Trajan's time. I recall reading somewhere that citizens could enlist in auxiliary units, but I can't think of the source off hand. Can anyone confirm that?
As far as the main topic of this thread, I think Nathan Ross stated the case for there being no legionary cohort commander succinctly, and I have to agree.
Cohort commander? - D B Campbell - 01-30-2013
Quote:I hesitate to criticize the venerable L&S, but does this actually refer to a centurion in a mixed auxiliary cohors equitata, rather than a cavalry troop?L&S aren't infallible. I'd agree that this looks like a cohors equitata.
Quote:The fact that the centurion is asking for citizenship for his daughter made me initially think that it must be an auxiliary unit, but since soldiers were still forbidden from marrying at this point, his daughter would have been illegitimate, therefore lacking citizenship, unless I'm mistaken, so I guess that proves nothing. The abbreviated praenomen suggests that the centurion was a citizen, although I'm not sure if that nomenclatural convention was still current in Trajan's time. I recall reading somewhere that citizens could enlist in auxiliary units, but I can't think of the source off hand.As you say, the fact that soldiers were forbidden to marry doesn't mean that they couldn't have illegitimate offspring. On discharge, the non-citizen auxiliary soldier received citizenship for those illegitimate offspring and for himself.
However, what if -- as in this case -- the auxiliary soldier (a centurion, as it happens) already had citizenship? (Accius Aquila's tria nomina shows that he is a citizen; he had perhaps been promoted from a legion to the post of auxiliary centurion.) Under Roman law, the offspring of a Roman citizen and a peregrine woman did not automatically receive citizenship, hence Accius Aquila's request is understandable.
Cohort commander? - Renatus - 01-30-2013
Quote:Cheesman says of cohors VI equestris (p.161, n.1), "The meaning of the title is obscure, unless equestris simply = equitata."C Crastinus post=329330 Wrote:I hesitate to criticize the venerable L&S, but does this actually refer to a centurion in a mixed auxiliary cohors equitata, rather than a cavalry troop?L&S aren't infallible. I'd agree that this looks like a cohors equitata.
Cohort commander? - C Crastinus - 01-30-2013
Quote:Cheesman says of cohors VI equestris (p.161, n.1), "The meaning of the title is obscure, unless equestris simply = equitata."
Thanks for that reference. I just downloaded that book since it's public domain. Although it's old, the appendices look pretty handy.
Cohort commander? - Renatus - 01-30-2013
I was reflecting overnight on the meaning of equestris. Cohortes equitatae were part-mounted units with separate infantry and cavalry elements but, at one time, they were often erroneously referred to as mounted infantry. Could it be that cohors VI equestris was a true unit of mounted infantry, riding to the battlefield but fighting on foot?
RE: Cohort commander? - Steven James - 03-13-2016
Frank wrote:
Centurions sometimes used their full titel, which includes the cohors, e.g. centurio decimus hastatus posterior legionis X. Decimus means the 10th Cohort.
Could not centurio decimus mean the tenth hastati posterior century and not the tenth cohort? Aristotle among others claimed that the Pythagoreans and all nations count up to ten and then revert to one.” By applying this doctrine, the century structure would be numbered in the following manner:
10 centuries of hastati prior numbered from one to ten.
10 centuries of hastati posterior numbered from one to ten.
10 centuries of principes prior numbered from one to ten.
10 centuries of principes posterior numbered from one to ten.
10 centuries of pilani prior numbered from one to ten.
10 centuries of pilani posterior numbered from one to ten.
For the early republic Dionysius for the year 487 BC briefly describes the career of Lucius Siccius being promoted to centurion then later to the commander of a cohort. Livy (3 69) writes that in 446 BC each cohort chose the centurions and two senators were put in commanded of every cohort. Taken at face value it would suggest that one coud became a cohort commander based on merit and then it changed to senators commanding a cohort, or it was a combination of both.
Anyone have any suggestions?
RE: Cohort commander? - Frank - 03-14-2016
(03-13-2016, 02:48 AM)Steven James Wrote: Could not centurio decimus mean the tenth hastati posterior century and not the tenth cohort?
Actually "decimus hastatus posterior" just means the "10th (centurio) Hastatus posterior". Not the "Hastatus posterior of the 10th cohort" or "of the 10th century of hastati posteriores". If I am not fully mistaken linguistically.
A commander of a century which belongs to the 10th cohort. And to the 10th maniple of the hastati in earlier times. So finally it probably meant both. At least after the cohort structure became common. As you know, romans were very traditional, if it comes to legions and naming.
So your conclusion about the naming of the 6 x 10 centuries sounds correct. But it is also nothing new. A roman would perhaps call it nitpicking, because he did not differentiate between "Hastatus posterior of the 10th cohort", "Centurio posterior of the 10th maniple of Hastati" and "Centurio of the 10th posterior century of the Hastati". It is just all the same for him, as far as I know.
RE: Cohort commander? - D B Campbell - 03-19-2016
(03-13-2016, 02:48 AM)Steven James Wrote: For the early republic Dionysius for the year 487 BC briefly describes the career of Lucius Siccius being promoted to centurion then later to the commander of a cohort.Rightly or wrongly, Dionysius seems to assume that there's a hierarchy of centurions, so that the centurio prior takes precedence over his manipular colleagues (cf. IX.10.2 for the primus pilus as "commander of the 60 centuries"). In this way, the centurio prior of the triarii could be said (by a first century writer) to be the commander of the cohort (though it is surely debateable whether anyone in the early-middle Republic would have thought in anything other than manipular terms).
btw The Lucius Siccius you refer to is usually known as Lucius Siccius Dentatus, and his speech, "quoted" by Dionysius, is usually thought to be Dionysius' own invention.
RE: Cohort commander? - Steven James - 03-19-2016
Duncan wrote:
Rightly or wrongly, Dionysius seems to assume that there's a hierarchy of centurions, so that the centurio prior takes precedence over his manipular colleagues (cf. IX.10.2 for the primus pilus as "commander of the 60 centuries"). In this way, the centurio prior of the triarii could be said (by a first century writer) to be the commander of the cohort (though it is surely debateable whether anyone in the early-middle Republic would have thought in anything other than manipular terms).
I’m of the school that centuries made maniples and maniples made cohorts for all periods of Rome’s history. However, I believe Dionysius’ reference to sixty centuries does not belong to the battle of Veii in 480 BC.
The Lucius Siccius you refer to is usually known as Lucius Siccius Dentatus, and his speech, "quoted" by Dionysius, is usually thought to be Dionysius' own invention.
RE: Cohort commander? - Steven James - 03-20-2016
Pliny the Elder Natural History (Book 7 Chapter 29 and Book 22 Chapter 4) also discusses the military career of L. Siccius Dentatus, so how could Dentatus be an invention of Dionysius? Is there evidence that Pliny was using Dionysius as his source? Could it be that both writers were using the same source and Dentatus did exist?
RE: Cohort commander? - Renatus - 03-20-2016
(03-19-2016, 03:45 PM)Steven James Wrote: Duncan wrote:Why would Dionysius want to invent a character?
The Lucius Siccius you refer to is usually known as Lucius Siccius Dentatus, and his speech, "quoted" by Dionysius, is usually thought to be Dionysius' own invention.
(03-20-2016, 02:38 AM)Steven James Wrote: Pliny the Elder Natural History (Book 7 Chapter 29 and Book 22 Chapter 4) also discusses the military career of L. Siccius Dentatus, so how could Dentatus be an invention of Dionysius?
Surely it is not suggested that Dentatus is invented. It is the speech that Dionysius puts into his mouth that is invented, which is par for the course for ancient historians.