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+--- Thread: Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else (/showthread.php?tid=21846)
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 01-04-2013
I came across this old post by Jurjen from about 5 years ago and was hoping he'd have some more pics and info about this. It's an Italic D with a face mask attached:
[attachment=6195]mini-DSC05249_2013-01-03.jpg[/attachment]
Is it actually attached or just placed inside for the picture? If it is attached I'd love to see some more detailed pics of them together and how it was modified to accept the mask. Thanks Jurjen!
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - jvrjenivs - 01-04-2013
Ow, that is a very old pic indeed. Helmet has already gone, but still have the mask.
To be honest, the mask was only placed inside the helmet for display purposes. So, I can't help you regarding this helmet.
Nonetheless, I've several masked helmets in my collection, so can add a little bit. There seems to be several ways of fitting a mask for a helmet. On my Kops plateau type helmets it is simply hinged to the helmet body. Make sure the upper edge of the mask follows the edge of the helmet closely for this. I've also seen other people combining the 'Kalkriese mask' with other helmets that way.
Another option is to go with the kalkriese mask, where the mask is loose and has a hook on the front. There thus have to be made a hole in the helmet to accomodate for this hook. The mask is then placed in by this hook en by closing the cheek-guards around the mask the mask stays in place.
Hereby the mask goes into the helmet, so the helmet need to have some more space.
Hope this is of any help.
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 01-04-2013
Thanks Jurjen. I think this mask really suits the helmet. In that same thread it looks like Adrian cut the mask at the forehead and soldered on a hinge and pin? In any case it looks fantastic. Thanks.
[attachment=6201]DSCF3475.jpg[/attachment]
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-04-2013
I thought I had seen this before.
I stuck my Kalkriese copy in the same helmet for a pic recently.
It looks good with the helmet, just modifying it to take it is the issue!
[attachment=6211]302737_10151087719337132_681267171_n.jpg[/attachment]
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 01-04-2013
That looks great! What did you do for the feather mount?
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - PhilusEstilius - 01-05-2013
Here is a possible method that shows one of my copies of the Kalkriese mask that I made with a hook facing outwards that could have clipped into a slot on the front of any helmet.
[attachment=6212]6Medium2.jpg[/attachment]
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-05-2013
Looks great Brian!
Jay, the feathers are just quills stuck in the T-slot for the photo. Not a permanent solution!
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - PhilusEstilius - 01-05-2013
Thank you Byron why I did the hook this way is that when we examine the original the edging goes all the way around, then there is a small gap at the mid centre top that suggests such a metal hook went between this gap and the small bands with rivets are a very much used method by Roman craftsmen to hold the edge strips on.
There are other examples of this method found on helmet cheek piece edgings and one very good one to check out is the Gallic G where these edging bands prevent the bronze strips coming off the cheek plates.
The hook was also made to point outwards so that when hooked into a slot in a brow band it does not trouble the wearer, and when the cheek plates are pulled together they hold the mask in against the face.
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - Doc - 01-05-2013
Jay,
I agree that the mask looks good with the Italic D. HOWEVER, if the Italic D has no provisions for a face mask,
making provisions to fit a mask makes the piece a little fantasy like. This is an infantry helmet and considered by many to have
been worn by a centurion considering those huge bolts and the slot for the crest.
If you wear something like this, it would be best to inform your audience that the combination is made up and unlikely.
I do not have unlikely pieces but when I add something to my armor as long as its plausible on that piece, then its ok.
If its an exact copy, I do not touch the piece because any modification unless you silver or tin a helmet, would be made up. Tinning a
and silvering were found on many helmets of all types thus it renders a certain reality irrespective of the piece.
There are some cavalry helmets from Adrians site that you could use and put the mask there. Granted you may have to make a
provision for the mask. However, in this case, unlike the Italic D, cavalry helmets could have face masks. Thus putting a face mask
on a helmet that may have not had one but cavalry helmets are known to do so, is a composite desgin of something very
realistic.
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 01-06-2013
Brian excellent work as always!
Doc I agree, I was just curious to see how it was attached. I may do a Signifer impression and was just throwing ideas around. Modifying and using the Italic D helmet I already have would save some money and could be easily removed. But that may be a while in coming...
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - Doc - 01-06-2013
I see....oh well....do what you must. I was just suggesting that instead of modifying a perfectly good infantry helmet
that you could use a cavalry helmet that is already out there and achieve the same result. However, I guess if you are trying to
save some money,,,,,,I understand perfectly. This hobby has some sort of abyss attached to its end. You can actually see your
wallet shrink right before your eyes.
hock:
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - PhilusEstilius - 01-06-2013
Thank you Jay and I would agree with doc about not doing anything to spoil a good Italic D, however where we look at the mask that Byron and Adrian have with a hinge bar on them I think that this type of mask could well be used without any alterations.
The cheek plates would hold the mask up and the hinge bar could be up against the brow area and then be used as a standard bearer. The only reason I put a hook onto the Kalkriese mask is there is very strong evidence to suggest there was a one, in fact when we look at the original of this mask there is also evidence that it may well have earlier been fitted with a hinge bar and that this had been removed.
Here is the evidence on the forehead of the original that shows the holes that may have held such a hinge bar, for there are two dull patches with these holes that would have held the hinge pin blocks.
[attachment=6217]img015Medium.jpg[/attachment]
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 01-19-2013
Thanks Brian, that's a good suggestion. I wonder how well the mask would stay in place being held with the cheek guards and resting against the brow. Other than Deepeeka does anyone else make these? I've only found the updated lighter ones from Deepeeka for sale. I can't tell, are they lined with leather inside the mask? I've never seen one in person.
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - jvrjenivs - 01-19-2013
Quote:Thanks Brian, that's a good suggestion. I wonder how well the mask would stay in place being held with the cheek guards and resting against the brow. Other than Deepeeka does anyone else make these? I've only found the updated lighter ones from Deepeeka for sale. I can't tell, are they lined with leather inside the mask? I've never seen one in person.
I've one of the loose masks from Deepeeka, the one used in the first pic you posted. I think that adding a single hook and tie it behind the cheekpieces would hold it firmly in place.
Niecsar from Poland has made these masks a couple of times and his work looks very good to me. Don't know about pricing though.
Italic D question for Jurjen or anyone else - jvrjenivs - 01-21-2013
I just found another very good craftsman selling Kalkriese masks
http://www.noricum.de/r%C3%B6mer/
Having seen his work up close I can highly recommend Stefans work.