+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Ancient Civ Talk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: Roman minutes and seconds (/showthread.php?tid=21632)
Pages:
1
2
Roman minutes and seconds - Epictetus - 11-08-2012
I know the Romans divided the day into twelve hours and the night into twelve hours. But did they have any smaller divisions of time, like a minute or a second? Or did they ever speak in terms of "a half hour" or something similar?
Roman minutes and seconds - Kegluneq - 11-08-2012
Quote:I know the Romans divided the day into twelve hours and the night into twelve hours. But did they have any smaller divisions of time, like a minute or a second? Or did they ever speak in terms of "a half hour" or something similar?I don't believe they did, although I can't prove a negative. Smaller divisions of time aren't really necessary in a preindustrial society, where there wasn't really a need to micromanage activity to best correspond to a fixed machine. Before mechanical clocks, using the time in navigation at sea was also impossible (and unnecessary).
There were no fixed time measurements in the Roman world at a level lower than the 'day' anyway, as the usual means of recording time was the sundial, which would give longer hours in summer and shorter hours in winter (water clocks may have been used but are not 100% accurate either). Ad hoc measurements might have been possible, such as the fixed walking pace, musical meter, heartbeats, or various industrial or craft processes (how long it takes to boil two eggs/bake a loaf/mould a pot). Obviously these could be obscure, arcane, highly subjective, or difficult to use out of context. However, such measurements probably served to communicate periods of time less than the hour when understood by both people in conversation.
I'm afraid I can't think of any good examples of relational time keeping at a level equivalent to the minute/second, although I'm sure there must be something obvious I'm forgetting. :/
Roman minutes and seconds - john m roberts - 11-08-2012
In the Middle Ages, short time durations, such as used in heat-treating metals, were often measured by prayer times: "As long as it takes to recite a paternoster," etc. The ancients might have had such methods. Personally, I've always wondered how the legions timed their guard reliefs.
Roman minutes and seconds - Quintius Clavus - 11-09-2012
Did the Romans have some form of water clock? It might be useful to look at the Greeks and the Epyptions as possible sources for timekeeping devices beyond just looking at the sky and/or the passage of the sun. Use of any such devices could allow finer division of time, though certainly not to the depth we get to these days.
Roman minutes and seconds - jvrjenivs - 11-09-2012
Quote:Did the Romans have some form of water clock?
Yes, they certainly had. To see some of the most mechanical engenering they could accomplish, see also the work by Heron of Alexandria.
Roman minutes and seconds - D B Campbell - 11-09-2012
Quote:Personally, I've always wondered how the legions timed their guard reliefs.Vegetius (3.8.17) says that the four night watches were regulated by use of the water-clock (clepsydra), a method already mentioned by Aeneas Tacticus (22.24-25).
Roman minutes and seconds - Kegluneq - 11-09-2012
Quote:Some further discussion here.john m roberts post=323959 Wrote:Personally, I've always wondered how the legions timed their guard reliefs.Vegetius (3.8.17) says that the four night watches were regulated by use of the water-clock (clepsydra), a method already mentioned by Aeneas Tacticus (22.24-25).
Roman minutes and seconds - Epictetus - 11-09-2012
Water clocks were also used in lawsuits, so each side had an equal amount of time. Judging from the length of some of the surviving speeches, water clocks must have measured several hours, not any lesser division of time. For guard shifts, too, the period must have been several hours, I would assume.
I didn't really think they had a concept of "minutes" or "seconds" but I wanted to ask. Thanks for all the replies!
Roman minutes and seconds - PhilusEstilius - 11-09-2012
I think the only shorter period of time I can think of comes from the series "I CLAUDIUS" where Octavian would say "I shall have him out as quick as boiled Asparagus" but then how long does that take to boil ?
Roman minutes and seconds - Epictetus - 11-09-2012
Quote:I think the only shorter period of time I can think of comes from the series "I CLAUDIUS" where Octavian would say "I shall have him out as quick as boiled Asparagus" but then how long does that take to boil ?
That's from Seutonius, I believe.
Quote:That in his everyday conversation he used certain favourite and peculiar expressions... to express the speed of a hasty action, "Quicker than you can cook asparagus."
Life of Augustus, 87.
I thought about this, but I couldn't find any incident where it was used as an actual measure (rather like the Pater Noster idea John mentioned). Instead it seems to simply be an expression, like "as fast as lightning" or something similar.
Roman minutes and seconds - D B Campbell - 11-10-2012
Quote:Water clocks were also used in lawsuits, so each side had an equal amount of time. Judging from the length of some of the surviving speeches, water clocks must have measured several hours, not any lesser division of time.In point of fact, there appear to have been water-clocks that measured short periods of time (the well-studied Athenian clepsydra took 6 minutes to drain), which were then added to regulate longer periods. So short periods could be measured.
The question is: did they have a name? It's possible that anyone relying upon a water-clock (e.g. the officer in charge of the night-watches) would specify how many containers of water were to be used before the allotted period was up. Thus, instead of saying, "Change over in three hours", they might have said "Change over in six amphoras".
Roman minutes and seconds - Lothia - 11-10-2012
Ave Civitas,
I have a book, Numbering and Measuring in the Classical World, by W.F. Richardson that explains that:
Romans had a 24 hour day, but the hours were divided with twelve from Sunrise to Sunset and twelve from Sunset to Sunrise. That leaves daylight hours longer between the two equinoxes spanning summer and night time hours longer the other half of the year.
This too would be a variable that changed from the southern to the northern latitudes. The Latin question for what time is it would be "Quota Hora Est?" and the answer would be a number from one to twelve depending.
Hipparchus (2nd C BC) divided the day into twenty-four equal sections but this measurement was only used by scientists. (see Pliny, Nat Hist XVIII 221)
The Romans also had minutes. The Greeks borrowed the Minute as "small parts" (Because they called the hours "Parts"). This the Romans adopted into Minuta. The "Minuta" was also divided into sixty "Secunda Minuta".
However, these minutes and seconds were only used by people working in the sciences.
To the average Joe he might express a portion of an hour into fractions, not minutes, so it would be a quarter hour not 15 minutes.
Hope this helps.
Tom
Roman minutes and seconds - Epictetus - 11-10-2012
Quote:The Romans also had minutes. The Greeks borrowed the Minute as "small parts" (Because they called the hours "Parts"). This the Romans adopted into Minuta. The "Minuta" was also divided into sixty "Secunda Minuta".
However, these minutes and seconds were only used by people working in the sciences.
To the average Joe he might express a portion of an hour into fractions, not minutes, so it would be a quarter hour not 15 minutes.
Hope this helps.
Tom
Thanks, Tom. That answers my question perfectly.
Roman minutes and seconds - D B Campbell - 11-11-2012
Quote:Romans had a 24 hour day, but the hours were divided with twelve from Sunrise to Sunset and twelve from Sunset to Sunrise.D'oh! Of course they did. :oops: Vegetius even states (Mil. 1.9.3) that recruits should march 20 miles in 5 hours. How did I forget that?!
I wonder about the minutes, though. When Vitruvius describes clocks, he seems to be only interested in hours (i.e. what hour it is, rather than how much of the hour has passed). Interesting topic.
Roman minutes and seconds - Lothia - 11-11-2012
Ave,
Unless he was working in the sciences he probably would not be concerned with minutes. When someone asked what is the hour, the answer would have been, "fifth hour" regardless if it was 17:01 or 17:59.
Tom