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Rome and China Redux - Narukami - 09-11-2012
Here is yet another story on near contact between the Roman and Chinese empires. This one talks about a Chinese Army setting out to subdue Rome until they are two days east of Antioch when the Parthians acquaint the Chinese with just how large the Roman Empire really is.
This all sounds amusing and very much like a film plot, but ...
I have heard of the Chinese sending a trade mission that made it nearly to Antioch but they turned back when the Parthians (who were making a fortune as middlemen on Silk Road trade between East and West) convinced the Chinese Ambassador that Rome was still several months travel away and really not worth the effort. However, an Chinese Army setting out to capture Rome?
Has anyone else heard of this particular story? :?
(*Moderators -- if you think this more properly belongs in the OFF-Topic Thread please move at your discretion.)
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ancient-medieval-early-modern-ages/40983-closest-rome-china-ever-got.html
The Closest Rome and China Ever Got
The Han Dynasty led a expedition to permanently defeat the Hsiung-nu (HUN) tribes that constantly plaque the Silk road. Under Generals Ten Ku and Keng Ping very a large Hsiung-nu force was defeated. During this battle, a subordinate cavalry commander, Pan Ch'ao, was ordered by General Ten Ku to attack the Hu-yen, an allied tribe of the Hsiung-nu and subdue them. Pan Ch'ao easily accomplished this task and was sent with a primary light cavalry army to advance as far as possible to the West.
This expedition was to expand the Han Empire to its furthest western boundaries. The main purpose of the advance was to drive the defeated Hsiung-nu into Outer Mongolia.
Pan Ch'ao's army was composed of roughly equal amounts of Chinese regulars and Khotan auxiliaries, all apparently lance equipped horse archers, while the Chinese were heavy lance armed horse. Along the way the Wu-sun were picked up as allies. Pan Ch'ao also forced subdued states to furnish additional horse archers for his army. This force, was a very mobile one, with few, if any, infantry.
Turfan fell without a fight. With minor opposition here and there, By 73 CE Pan Ch'ao defeated all 36 kingdoms in and around the Tarim Basin.
Probably occurring in 90 A.D., dated by subsequent events that follow this battle, dated in Chavannes' T'oung Pao, as Pan Ch'ao had defeated all tribes and lands of the Tarim Basin no one had rescinded his orders, Pan Ch'ao continued his westward drive. As Pan Ch'ao was about to skirt the northern edge of the Pamirs Mountains, the Kushan (N. India) ruler saw that, unless an action was forced, his domain would be endangered.
A force of 70,000 cavalry was sent under Viceroy Si across the Tsung-ling Mountain range to intercept Pan Ch'ao. Unfortunately, this crossing was made at the wrong place at the wrong time of the year, and many died. Seriously damaged in strength, the Kushan Army emerged from the mountains shattered - but committed to fight. Pan Ch'ao easily defeated the depleted Kushan Army, and China received tribute from the Indian Kingdom.
By 97 CE Pan Ch'ao had defeated Ansi (the Arsacid Parthian Empire). Now Han China stood, the greatest land-owning empire only second to Rome. Pan Ch'ao ordered his second in command, Kan Ying, to set forth across newly conquered Ansi, to "Ta-ts'in", the Chinese name for the Roman Empire. Pan Ch'ao only allocated a portion of the army to subdue this "additional Kingdom", Kan Ying advanced across the middle Eastern expanses towards Antioch, thought to be the capitol of the Empire. Kan Ying was eager to know of his enemy, so the Parthians began to tell him about the legiones whose men fought "bundled up like little sticks" He also heard of the might and expanse of the Roman Empire. Upon gaining this new intelligence information, Kan Ying decided that his cavalry force was not sufficient for the task, and as he had no infantry he turned around and rejoined Pan Ch'ao at Ctesiphon. He was less then two days march from Antioch when he aborted. The Chinese army made the Parthians allies, and withdrew a days march from the capital. In 116 AD., Emperor Trajanus advances into Parthia to Ctesiphon and were within one day's march of Han Chinese border garrisons. But that's the closest the two came to blows.
As a side note, 97 A.D. was the first year of the Emperor Trajanus reign. It is quite interesting to speculate on the consequences had Kan Ying pursued his objective and attacked Roman Antioch.
It was the closest contact the Han and Romans ever came. (Granted the Han army was almost complete made up of allied horse archers)
:wink:
Narukami
Rome and China Redux - Robert Vermaat - 09-12-2012
Quote: Pan Ch'ao easily defeated the depleted Kushan Army, and China received tribute from the Indian Kingdom.Is this even historical?
hock: Quote:By 97 CE Pan Ch'ao had defeated Ansi (the Arsacid Parthian Empire).This surely is not!!! :woot:
Quote:He was less then two days march from Antioch when he aborted. The Chinese army made the Parthians allies, and withdrew a days march from the capital. In 116 AD., Emperor Trajanus advances into Parthia to Ctesiphon and were within one day's march of Han Chinese border garrisons. :wink:Indeed :wink: ! Ctesiphon was within one day of the Chinese border? By bullet train chariots I presume!!!
Rome and China Redux - Epictetus - 09-12-2012
The story doesn't seem to do much, it just says something with no sources or reasoning behind it. But in that thread someone put a link to this, which I think is fascinating.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/romchin1.asp
I think my favourite is the description of Constantinople ca. mid-tenth century.
Rome and China Redux - Nathan Ross - 09-12-2012
Quote:But in that thread someone put a link to this, which I think is fascinating.
Thanks for pointing that out - I'd wondered for some time what the basis for all these Rome/China stories might be, and this article gives a decent summary.
It's quite clear, from the vague and fantastical Chinese accounts, that all their information on countries to the west came second or third hand from ambassadors and foreign travellers, not from any direct contact. Also, the country usually glossed as 'Rome' in translations of these accounts appears to be nothing of the sort - some eastern province of the Parthian or Persian empire seems far more likely.
Rome and China Redux - Flavivs Aetivs - 09-12-2012
Wikipedia has a fairly decent list of Encounters between Rome and China, but I don't know much about the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romano-Chinese_relations
Rome and China Redux - Narukami - 09-12-2012
Good find Epictetus! :!:
I posted the original article because I could not believe I had missed a Chinese Army invading Parthia on its way to Rome. It reads like a film plot and is being presented as if it is confirmed history. Robert has eviscerated it rather nicely.
However, this side bar link (which I must shamefacedly admit I missed) :oops: does provide quite a bit of very useful and interesting information.
Thanks again Epictetus for pointing out the link.
:wink:
Narukami
Rome and China Redux - Vincula - 09-12-2012
my favorite blog has this: http://antoninuspius.blogspot.co.uk/
Rome and China Redux - Narukami - 09-13-2012
Excellent link Vincula.
"A Chinese text known as the Hou-Hanshou records that, in AD 97, Gan Ying "looked upon the Western Sea". If this was the Persian Gulf, he was far-travelled indeed. The mariners on the coast evidently dissuaded the Chinese traveller from proceeding any further on account of the distances and dangers involved. They clearly had only the vaguest notion of the west."
This must be what Adrian Goldsworthy was referring to when he answered a question about China & Rome during his lecture at the Kansas City Library a couple of years ago. He mentioned that an embassy was sent from China with the intent of reaching Rome and establishing contact. However, they were dissuaded by the Parthians to proceed further when they assured the Ambassador that Rome was still months way across rough and arduous terrain.
Once again Vincula, thanks for the link.
:wink:
Narukami
Rome and China Redux - Robert Vermaat - 09-14-2012
Quote:http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/romchin1.aspThe link is dead?
Rome and China Redux - Narukami - 09-15-2012
Quote:Epictetus post=320502 Wrote:http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/romchin1.aspThe link is dead?
:?:
Still works for me.
:?
Narukami
Rome and China Redux - Robert Vermaat - 09-17-2012
I get a 404-not found.
Rome and China Redux - Nathan Ross - 09-17-2012
Quote:I get a 404-not found.
Works for me too. Try Googling "East Asian History Sourcebook: Chinese Accounts of Rome, Byzantium and the Middle East, c. 91 B.C.E. - 1643 C.E" - that might be a way around it.
Rome and China Redux - Titus Manlius Verus - 09-20-2012
I believe that it is safe to conclude that the Romans and Chinese had no direct contact. The only REMOTELY (and I'm going out on a limb-no, a twig, here)feasablble military contact was proposed by the late historian Homer H. Dubbs was that a group Roman prisoners of war that were captured by the Parthians at Carrhae were sent to the Parthian eastern frontier in Margiana by king Orodes II of Parthia, and may have skirmished with Han soldiers.
Source: Homer H. Dubs: "An Ancient Military Contact between Romans and Chinese", The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 62, No. 3 (1941), pp. 322-330
Sorry, I couldn't find a link to it. :oops:
Rome and China Redux - D B Campbell - 09-21-2012
Quote:The only REMOTELY (and I'm going out on a limb-no, a twig, here)feasablble military contact was proposed by the late historian Homer H. Dubbs was that a group Roman prisoners of war that were captured by the Parthians at Carrhae were sent to the Parthian eastern frontier in Margiana by king Orodes II of Parthia, and may have skirmished with Han soldiers.You may want to scramble back off that limb, Tyler, after you read this: http://glasgow.academia.edu/DBCampbell/Papers/1953493/Romans_in_China. Maybe? Maybe not? :unsure:
Rome and China Redux - Titus Manlius Verus - 09-21-2012
I never said that it was gospel, just a theory.
