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The most northerly roman fort investigated - Dave G - 08-28-2012
Thought this may be of interest to those outwith the bbc scotland area who wont have seen this on tonights news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-19392180
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-28-2012
Quite a bold statement that it would predate the Limes Germanicus...
The first forts at the Rhine frontier in Germania Inferior were built between 14 AD and 39 AD (though it only became a fixed frontier between 70 AD and 117 AD), so I do not know where they get this nonsense from....
Wishful thinking perhaps....
M.VIB.M.
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - Simplex - 08-28-2012
Wow, --- this one must easily fall into the "First castellum on the Mosel" or "First Altar since 1870" -category. :roll:
While I'm always interested in reports from excavations ( BTW : thanks for that link, Dave !) I especially do appreciate "the finer structures" of "archeologists self-promotion".
It's a loud world out there, boys 'n girls, so make yourself being heard in full. :wink:
Greez
Simplex
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - Jona Lendering - 08-28-2012
Quote:Quite a bold statement that it would predate the Limes Germanicus...Your're to careful. It's not "quite bold", it plainly incorrect. The Limes Germanicus can be dated to the forties.
The first forts at the Rhine frontier in Germania Inferior were built between 14 AD and 39 AD (though it only became a fixed frontier between 70 AD and 117 AD)
- 39/40 (dendro) for Valkenburg South-Holland, Praetorium Agrippinae, almost certainly built for Caligula's state visit
- c.41 for Velsen 2 (perhaps a bit earlier)
- c.41 for Alphen aan den Rijn (or was it 47? I may be wrong)
- c.41 for Vleuten
- mid-forties for the oldest watchtower at Leidsche Rijn
- Vechten (Fectio) may have been rebuilt as well; there's a barrel from Caligula's private vineyard, so it must have existed when he visited the Lower Rhine area
- Woerden 2 (Laurum) may date to 41 but can also be six or seven years younger
- The Canal of Corbulo is usually dated to 47 (Tacitus, Annals, 11.20); there's a dendro 50.
- In Xanten, we find the first stone foundations for buildings.
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - D B Campbell - 08-28-2012
Quote:Quite a bold statement that it would predate the Limes Germanicus...The claim (as far as I recall) is based (a) on the definition of a frontier as a closely-watched military road, and (b) on slight hints of a Flavian date from the Gask Ridge watch-towers. I am a sceptic. However, we can certainly celebrate Stracathro as the most noertherly Roman fort!
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-28-2012
That last one, for Britain, is true of course unless another one is found more North.
About the entire Caligula has visited the Netherlands bit I am less certain. I think that even though the name Praetorium Agrippinae might have been the name of the Valkenburg I fortress, to establish names from the Peuteringiana map is always a risk. Same with the so called private vinyard barrels of Caligula which were found as water wells in the Netherlands. Does not prove a thing but that there was transport of some barrels of wine from one of the many vinyards of Emperor Gaius to me. Unless 5.000 or more pilum points are found off the coast of Katwijk, I do not believe Gaius was actually here in person.
The same archaeological wishful thinking is going on with the medallion found in Nijmegen carrying the name of someone mentioned in Tacitus' Histories. Nice but wrong legion.
M.VIB.M.
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-28-2012
Hmmm, those two lines do seem to ruin what is an interesting article.
I drive past there every time I travel up and down to aberdeen.
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - Nathan Ross - 08-28-2012
Quote:slight hints of a Flavian date from the Gask Ridge watch-towers.Do you mean an earlier Flavian date (than is usually assumed)? Or is Gask supposed to be post-Flavian now? :?
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - D B Campbell - 08-28-2012
Quote:Do you mean an earlier Flavian date (than is usually assumed)?No, I don't think so. (Sorry, I'm not sure what you're driving at.)
Quote:Or is Gask supposed to be post-Flavian now?For those who are unfamiliar with Roman Scotland, the "Gask Ridge" is a military road linking the fort at Ardoch (at its southern end) to the fort at Bertha (at its northern end), via (in the middle) the fort at Strageath. The same road was used by Flavian and Antonine armies, and the three forts have Flavian and Antonine phases. (The forts beyond Bertha -- of which Stracathro is the northernmost -- are Flavian and show no signs of Antonine re-occupation.) At some stage, the military road was dotted with watch-towers, which are taken (by some) to be the hallmark of a "frontier"; they are universally (almost universally: I am a sceptic) accepted as Flavian. Hence, earlier than any comparable "frontier" (military road dotted with watch-towers) on the Continent.
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - Nathan Ross - 08-28-2012
Quote:Sorry, I'm not sure what you're driving at.I thought you were referring to the idea (by Hoffman and the Gask Ridge Project, I think) that the road and towers were pre-Agricolan, and were perhaps built by Cerialis. This still falls within Flavian, of course...
mile: I knew you were sceptical about this one though!Quote:they are universally (almost universally: I am a sceptic) accepted as Flavian.Ah, righto. That explains the note above - Antonine entirely, you think?
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-28-2012
Most likely Severan ;-)
Flavian is a little doubtful since in classical literature there are no campaigns mentioned in the Scottisch region/Caledonia (that I know of at least), and they would have definetely been mentioned since those things were almost always mentioned.
M.VIB.M.
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - D B Campbell - 08-28-2012
Quote:Antonine entirely, you think?safer to say "unproven". :wink:
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - Nathan Ross - 08-28-2012
Quote:Flavian is a little doubtful since in classical literature there are no campaigns mentioned in the Scottisch region/Caledonia (that I know of at least)Agricola? :???:
I believe Stracathro at least is demonstrably Flavian - unworn coin of Domitian, I think?
Quote:However, we can certainly celebrate Stracathro as the most noertherly Roman fort!You don't hold with Birnie being a fort, then?
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - D B Campbell - 08-28-2012
Quote:Most likely Severan ;-)That's the one period we can safely rule out!
Quote:The site is part of the Gask frontier, a line of forts and watchtowers which predates Hadrian's Wall.Oh, dear; standards are slipping at the Beeb. Stracathro has never been claimed as part of the Gask Ridge, which lies much further south. But, as it's a Flavian fort, sneaking it into "the Gask frontier" neatly reinforces the Flavian date of that "frontier". :roll:
Quote:I thought you were referring to the idea (by Hoffman and the Gask Ridge Project, I think) that the road and towers were pre-Agricolan, and were perhaps built by Cerialis.Heavens! Will the madness never end?! :wink:
Re: The most northerly roman fort investigated - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-28-2012
Now that's what I was thinking! The Gask ridge appears to protect
Fife did it not!?
Stracathro is quite a bit further north!