Roman Saddles - A Question - Printable Version

Roman Saddles - A Question - Printable Version

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Roman Saddles - A Question - Vindex - 07-22-2012

Having researched Roman saddles and looked into making one for well over a year now, and trying different interpretations offered "on the market" as it were, I have come across an anomaly I hope you can help me to explain.

Although there is archaeological evidence for saddles with horns either from plates or saddle covers (Newstead, Carlisle, Castleford etc etc etc) unlike the iconpgraphy from other parts of Europe, tombstones in the province of Britannia are short on depicting horns on the saddles at all (actually, I haven't found one and wait with bated breath for someone to tell me where I might see one).

http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh582/moi_watson/

So the question is; are these tombstones reflecting the more typical cavalry of Britannia and horned saddles were the exception and not the rule, or is it merely a stylisitc difference in stone carving in Britannia as opposed to other parts of the Empire?

Bear in mind Insus is still the only cavalryman shown with a sword in his hand (EDIT: Oh no he's not!!! See later post!not a lance or a standard/imago (and it could be considered quite a short, wide sword at that as opposed to a spatha) and the bridles depicted where they can be seen seem to be far simpler than those tombstones found in Germany and elsewhere. This is relevant to me because what the horse has in its mouth or across its nose is sometimes of more importance than the saddle and can influence its design/function.

I look forward to the opinion of Forum.

Thank you.

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-22-2012

Hmmm, maybe it was too difficult to show the horns?
Or perhaps they are covered by garments worn....?

Nice curve ball Moi! Wink

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - D B Campbell - 07-22-2012

Quote:Bear in mind Insus is still the only cavalryman shown with a sword in his hand not a lance or a standard/imago ...

Off the top of my head, I know there's a cavalry swordsman relief from Kirkby Thore. (A rather nonchalant fellow with his blade casually resting behind his neck, iirc!) Surely there are others? :?

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-22-2012

I believe he is carrying a Mainz Gladius, and possibly he is a Roman Citizen, as opposed ot auxillia?

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - jvrjenivs - 07-22-2012

Just some of my denarii after a short rethinking of your question.

First of all, I'm not an expert of thombstones and know little more than some artistic designs often seen in Rhineland stele. Don't know how examples from Britain should be placed relative to this (which is part of your question) so I'm going to look at it from the evidence for the use of saddles in general and then back to the UK and these saddles.

First, we have Caesar make a comment on Germanic cavalryman, who found riding with a saddle(cloth) lazy and unmanly. They looked down on cavalry which rode using saddle or saddlecloths. (Caesar, De Bello Gallico, 4.2)

Of course this is about germanic tribes and Caesar surely also could use to make difference between civilised cavalry (with saddles) and others without, but still we know of different horse-cultures having skilled cavalry without the use of saddles. Xenophon in his book on horsemanship handles with riding skills in a bareback session.

Of course this all indirect evidence for bare-back riding in ancient times. However, on the gravestones we firstly see saddle cloths. This can still indicate bare-back riding, but along with it all (ar at least almost all) also show tack, phalerae and other bling. This bling was secured to the saddle, as far as we know. This would thus, IMHO suggest the use of a saddle, although not directly depicted on the gravestone.

Then of couse there can be another type of saddle, without horns, with small horns, or the horns aren't depicted on the gravestones. Hard to say, although all metarial we've from the archeological record shows us saddles with horns (e.g. the saddle covers AND the bigger number of bronze horn stiffeners). Of course this still can't rule out other options, but the Roman horned saddle was certainly used at some numbers in Roman Britain, guessing by the number of saddle bronzes found on different spots.

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Vindex - 07-22-2012

Quote:
Vindex post=316783 Wrote:Bear in mind Insus is still the only cavalryman shown with a sword in his hand not a lance or a standard/imago ...
Off the top of my head, I know there's a cavalry swordsman relief from Kirkby Thore. (A rather nonchalant fellow with his blade casually resting behind his neck, iirc!) Surely there are others? :?

That's what I get for making wild statements and happy to be put right - but does his saddle have horns on? I haven't found an image of the tombstone yet, sadly.

Jurjen - I am assuming Insus has a saddle of some sort as his horse wears breeching straps (which are also depicted on the other tombstones), suggesting that there is something which requires to be held in place. The question is, what is it? Obviously a saddle of sorts, but no obvious horns.

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - D B Campbell - 07-22-2012

Quote:I haven't found an image of the tombstone yet, sadly.

Not sure if the sculpture has maybe been "lost" -- I don't have a copy of CSIR to hand. The only image I can find is from Collingwood Bruce's wonderful Lapidarium Septentrionale (1875):
[attachment=4678]KirkbyThore_cavalryman.jpg[/attachment]
It's worth noting that, if the saddle did have horns, they'd be obscured by the drapery. :? I noticed the same effect in the photo of Nigel Apperley and Trajan the pony that I used in Mons Graupius AD 83 (p. 76): you can't really see the saddle horns.

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Vindex - 07-22-2012

Thank you Duncan, not seen that.

I take it back :wink:

And the horse doesn't seem to have breeching straps...heigh ho! But then again, it doesn't have a bridle either.

Perhaps they were painted on? (thinking out loud).

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-22-2012

I did actually say that once already...but wth :roll:

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Vindex - 07-22-2012

Quote: Not sure if the sculpture has maybe been "lost" -- I don't have a copy of CSIR to hand. The only image I can find is from Collingwood Bruce's wonderful Lapidarium Septentrionale (1875):

No he's not in CSIR.

BUT

Marcus Aurelius Victor is. :oops: :roll: So I retract that about Insus; however, the main issue is the saddle.

Sorry Byron - say what? That the tack was painted on? Missed that. But it's the saddle horns I'm interested in and my point is that other tombstones outside of Britannia do have them depicted.

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - D B Campbell - 07-22-2012

Quote:... unlike the iconpgraphy from other parts of Europe, tombstones in the province of Britannia are short on depicting horns on the saddles at all (actually, I haven't found one and wait with bated breath for someone to tell me where I might see one).

This sculpture, allegedly from Stanwix on Hadrian's Wall (again, without the CSIR volume, I can't confirm that), shows signs of a saddle similar to that of Romanius (Mainz), although it's nowhere near as fine craftsmanship.
[attachment=4679]Stanwix_cavalryman.jpg[/attachment]

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-22-2012

Quote:
BUT
Sorry Byron - say what? That the tack was painted on? Missed that. But it's the saddle horns I'm interested in and my point is that other tombstones outside of Britannia do have them depicted.

Yeah the tack is painted on.... Confused

hock: not sure how you got that from what I said..
I said in a previous post that the horns could be covered by the riders cloths, but hey it sounds better coming from a PHD... :wink:

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - D B Campbell - 07-22-2012

Quote:But Marcus Aurelius Victor is. :oops: :roll: So I retract that about Insus.

Victor may actually be brandishing a spear. It's hard to tell. (Is the Alnwick Castle collection open to the public? :-? )

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - D B Campbell - 07-22-2012

Quote:I said in a previous post that the horns could be covered by the riders cloths, but hey it sounds better coming from a PHD... :wink:

Apologies -- I missed that one! :oops:

Re: Roman Saddles - A Question - Vindex - 07-22-2012

Quote:
Vindex post=316783 Wrote:... unlike the iconpgraphy from other parts of Europe, tombstones in the province of Britannia are short on depicting horns on the saddles at all (actually, I haven't found one and wait with bated breath for someone to tell me where I might see one).
This sculpture, allegedly from Stanwix on Hadrian's Wall (again, without the CSIR volume, I can't confirm that), shows signs of a saddle similar to that of Romanius (Mainz), although it's nowhere near as fine craftsmanship.
[attachment=4679]Stanwix_cavalryman.jpg[/attachment]

He's not in Vol 1 Fasc 6 CSIR which is where I suppose he should be?

Sorry Byron...speed reading :roll: