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+--- Thread: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan (/showthread.php?tid=20961)
Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - Eleatic Guest - 06-23-2012
Mehr als 1500 Jahre alt. Römische Glasperlen in Japan entdeckt
The find will very probably fuel speculations about how far east Roman influence was felt in some form or other.
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - Narukami - 06-23-2012
Beat me to the punch Stefan -- I salute you. 8)
Indeed, the speculation has begun, if the comments to the article in the Japan Times are any indication.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/roman-jewelry-found-in-ancient-tomb-near-kyoto?utm_campaign=jt_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=jt_newsletter_2012-06-23_AM
Of course, this is really not that surprising. In fact it is surprising more items have not been discovered and sooner.
Trade along the Silk Road was both heavy and lucrative, for all parties concerned. Romans enjoyed Chinese silks, and there is no reason to suppose that the Chinese did not enjoy Roman jewelry. Items moving from China to Korea and then on to Japan was quite common, so why not Roman glass? Those might be extremely rare and only for the very rich or powerful, and then again ...
No doubt more items are waiting to be discovered and identified.
:wink:
Narukami
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-23-2012
Doesn't surprise me at all! I already noted the influence on some Japanese armour from Roman equipment.... :grin:
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 06-24-2012
To all who believe in the story that the glass bead found in a Japanese tomb is actually Roman in origin :
I must caution anyone remotely believing this idea.
There is no proof whatsoever that the glass beed found is actually Roman. There also is no proof that in the East glass would have been something which was unknown, or not made. Of course there is the thesis that the Chinese never invented glass since they already had porcelain.
China probably did have trade contacts with Rome or with traders who came through the silk road, but we do not know if the names for the Western Empire found in ancient Chinese manuscripts are at all pointing towards Rome or maybe even to the Parthian Empire or the later Persian-Sassanid Empire.
In the Pompeii region an object of clearly Indian origin was found, which indicates there probably were long distance trade contacts in existence.
![[Image: Lakshmi%2Bpompeii.jpg]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ost45tmkvuk/SgTBvTlCAtI/AAAAAAAACXw/N5sSFB52S-c/s1600/Lakshmi%2Bpompeii.jpg)
Now the other problem with this story is that the Nagaoka tomb is a fifth century one.
Of course that makes the possibility that the bead was constructed in the Eastern half of the Roman Empire not unlikely, but still it offers no proof of official contacts between Rome and Japan, as some articles would want us to believe. Especially not since during the 5th Century the Roman Empire was in great turmoil.
Roman and even much earlier Greek coins have been found on several places in Asia as well as India, and we know that some Greeks being part of Alexander the Great's Army highly likely have travelled to Sri-Lanka.
So yes, the bead might well come from the central European or even Iranian region.
Is it Roman ? No definitive answer can be given. Why not? Because during the fifth century, also the Persian Sassanid Empire had this technology. They had Natron and knew how to make glass, as did other peoples.
![[Image: East-Hem_400ad.jpg]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/East-Hem_400ad.jpg)
M.VIB.M.
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - daryush - 06-24-2012
Thanks Marvus Vibius Maurinus for the analysis. Beads aren't my specialty but there were well known routes from Europe and the Middle East to China and then from China to Japan - of course the most obvious thing that appears to have travelled across these routes is the pearl roundel motif on textiles. And Iran was also a big exporter of glassware and metalware. The Sogdians were the key players along the Silk route.
The fact that something from Europe may appear in Japan however isn't at all surprising.
Quote:Doesn't surprise me at all! I already noted the influence on some Japanese armour from Roman equipment.... :grin:
??? Would you mind elaborating? Thanks :grin:
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-24-2012
Yes, a helmet in the Leeds Armoury, looks almost exactly like a roman gallic helmet, except it is japanese...
And of course, I cannt find the photo...
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - daryush - 06-24-2012
Quote:Yes, a helmet in the Leeds Armoury, looks almost exactly like a roman gallic helmet, except it is japanese...
And of course, I cannt find the photo...
I'll try check it out next time I'm there, or hunt down a photo online then. But on the face of it, I'd be more likely to attribute it to a "form follows function" type thing.
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-24-2012
Yes Nadeem, I'm just stretching the point a bit...
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - daryush - 06-24-2012
LOL! That makes somewhat more sense. Two
's and I didn't pick that up :mrgreen: whoops! :oops:
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - Narukami - 06-24-2012
Marcus is quite correct in his analysis, and like many recent announcements of archeological discoveries, there is often far more hype than scholarship. Indeed, there is no absolute proof that this item came from the Roman Empire (Eastern or Western), however, it is certainly not impossible either.
Even so, a word of caution, is in order. I guess, in one respect, we should be glad no one claimed it was proof of Aliens from Space. Of course, that claim may pop up yet.
As for armor -- there are several examples of European influences seen in Japanese armor. Marcus can probably speak more adroitly on this aspect of samurai history.
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=4220&sid=ebb3da327b191a85648533bcc8b3c59c
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Sekigahara_armour.jpg
:wink:
Narukami
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - almoral - 07-06-2012
Marcus,
You are too dismissive of Roman contacts in the East:
1) The Chinese knew the difference between Persia and Rome. China and Persia had been exchanging ambassadors since the 2nd century BC. In fact the Chinese sent an expeditionary army to Iran (specifically Sistan province) to try to restore the last Sassanid king to his throne.
2) Glass objects CAN tell you alot about where they originated and when. Roman glassmaking techniques were the most advanced in the world, and Roman glass was in wide demand as an exchange good. When you find glass that was made with certain chemicals you can be sure it was made by Romans. In fact Romans got in the habit of sending master craftsmen to their emporia overseas, and then shipped blocks of raw glass to the craftsmen for remelting.
3)The larger Roman emporia produced their own glass, and several developed their own styles of jewelry. In fact, archeologists can use stylistic and chemical markers to trace the distribution of goods from various trading centers. For example, glassware from the Roman emporia at Oc Eo Vietnam have been found in Egypt and the east coast of Africa.
4) These beads are not the only Roman objects found in NE Asia. IIRC a glass statuette was found in the foundation of an Okinawan temple. The temple dated to ~700 AD, but the statuette was made in Syria ~200 AD. In addition Roman beads have been found in tombs in Korea.
Given that there was a treaty concession for Romans in Viet Nam, it would not be surprising if Japanese merchants made contact with their Roman counterparts in SEA. It also would not be surprising if they traded via middlemen. However we need to keep an open mind on new evidence.
Re: Roman Glass Beads Found in 5th C. Grave in Japan - Alanus - 07-06-2012
First, we must remember the "Silk Road" is far older than once assumed. And second, it had at least two distinct routes, basically along the the north and south of the steppe. It was established in the bronze age.
The Romans were a major "late" player in the game, and they had to trade something to get something. The variety of luxuries that were traded would certainly include glass products. That Roman glass (or Syrian) arrived to Japan doesn't seem shocking. Silk has been found in "barbarian Germany," and at a very early date-- sometime B.C. In the fifth century, as mentioned for these glass objects, a huge amount of Indic jewels found their way to Frankish and Alemanni craftsmen. But in essence, we can go back to 1,500 BC when Altai tin was carried to central Mesopotamia. :roll: