Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia

Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Printable Version

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Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Rado - 05-25-2012

Centurio helmet from Sisak, Croatia

Is this the one proven centurio helmet Galic C ore D?
Extracts from the book “Roman Centurions 31 BC–AD 500” by OSPREY PUBLISHING
“A helmet of Weisenau type -
Imperial Gallic C or D, by
Robinson's classification - from
Sisak, Croatia; found in the
Kupa river, it has been dated to
the second quarter of the 1st
century AD. The helmet shows
evidence of three layers of
decorative plating in silver and
gilding, applied at three different
times during its use. The small
ring preserved on one side, and
a corresponding hole on the
other side where a ring has been
lost, indicate a system for
attaching a transverse crest.
Both these features strongly
suggest the richly decorated
helmet of a centurion.
(Archaeological Museum,
Zagreb; photo courtesy
Prof Radman-Livaja)”
Both helmets were found together in the same place ( Sisak, Croatia) .The difference that one is decorated .. significant for a CENTURION so I think that is a Gallic C model .

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Rado - 05-25-2012

Extracts from the book “Archaeological Traces of the Pannonian Revolt 6 –9 AD:
Evidence and Conjecture”
By :Ivan Radman-Livaja – Marko Dizdar
“This helmet has another distinctive attribute. It would seem that it was an officer’s helmet, i. e. a centurion’s helmet since the helmet was equipped for a lateral wearing of the crest. T The transversal crest, crista transversa,was a sign of the centurion rank.”
So if it will be made as a replica it must be tinning and on the ordinary model Galic C must be added it: 2 brass fittings for the ears protectors, richly decorated front band , masked spherical trim on both sides( under the decorate band) and 1 on the neck protector, rings with brackets for the leather straps centurion crestwood, ..It will be difficult with:bulging sphere for mounting of a centurion crest.

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Rado - 05-25-2012

Masked spherical trim on both sides are ( under the decorate band) attachment with iron rivets that attach at the same time the cheek protectors (on the same place as ordinary Galic C )!
is this confirms the theory that the ordinary Galic C has been modified in to the centurio helmet!?

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Marcus Mummius - 05-26-2012

Hi Rado,

I've always seen the 'centurio' helmet from Sisak seen classified as a Gallic F.

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Doc - 05-26-2012

Hello Rado,

Jeff is correct that the classification is a Gallic F. However, I like your argument and where you are going with this.

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Rado - 05-26-2012

The curvature of the neck protector is twisted downward (as far can be seen from this picture) and much more look like to me on Galic C ore H!
If anyone has a photo to neck protector of Centurion helmet from Sisak show that it is equal to a Gallic F model I will be grateful!
Otherwise the question remains open for me!
I hope this summer to have the opportunity to go to Croatia and to examine this Centurio helmet myself .

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - PhilusEstilius - 05-26-2012

I have to agree with both Jef and Doc that this helmet is a Gallic F in fact this is how it is classified in the H.RUSSELL ROBINSON book.

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Rado - 05-26-2012

I would agree with you but .. I do not see any evidence for now that this is Gallic F . On the way that this photo was made can be seen that the neck protector is twisted downward!?
If it is so ,then this is not typical for Gallic F and is suitable for Galic C ore H !?
I think it is necessary picture from another angle,

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - PhilusEstilius - 05-27-2012

Here is a picture of the helmet that you show which is considered a Gallic F by Robinson it is the one to the left of the cheekplate, fig121 page 56 H.R.Robinson.
[attachment=4065]00001124.jpg[/attachment]

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Joze Noriker - 05-27-2012

By this replica store is the helmet from Kupa river; Sisak as Gallic C:

http://www.replik-online.de/de/index2.html

Here i will order my helmet next year.

Joze

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Rado - 05-27-2012

Thank you for the efforts PhilusEstilius but there are many inconsistencies on artifacts .. On Friday I made inquiries to “Archaeological museum Zagreb” regarding clarification over this subject. I expect an answer.

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Joze Noriker - 05-27-2012

Maybe will you help this article and the author:
http://bib.irb.hr/prikazi-rad?&rad=341709

Have you seen this foto:
http://www.amz.hr/naslovnica/virtualna-setnja/stalni-postav/anticka-zbirka.aspx

the e mails of the antique's exhibition are here:
http://www.amz.hr/naslovnica/odjeli/zbirke/anticki-odjel.aspx
The Ivan is here on the academia, too:
http://amz.academia.edu/IvanRadman
his papers:http://amz.academia.edu/Departments/Greek_and_Roman_Department/Papers

Here in his text by the fig. nr. 6. and 7. i don't see any meaning about the clasification of the helmets from the river Kupa, Sisak:
http://amz.academia.edu/IvanRadman/Papers/506932/Archaeological_traces_of_the_Pannonian_revolt_evidence_and_conjectures

Joze

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Rado - 05-27-2012

Thank you for links Joze!
I already became acquainted with the necessary information from them (published books). But I'm still not entirely satisfied with the result!

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Doc - 05-27-2012

Rado,

I see your argument and it is entirely possible you are correct. It is not unusual to find that certain things that Robinson said could be misleading or incorrect.

The issue with the neckguard for instance, the Gallic C has a larger sloping neckguard. It appears that in the supposed Gallic series, it is the D and G with the smaller neckguards and the C and H with the larger neckguards. I dare say more so than the Sisak helmet you are showing. It appears that the Sisak helmet's neckguard is in between the known Gallic F and the Gallic C,D.

The bowl of the C also appears to be deeper than the Sisak helmet.......the Gallic D also has a deep bowl just like the C. The Sisak helmet bowl is not as deep as the two mentioned.

The "eyebrows" are curved but the ridge layout is different between the Sisak and C. The absense of earguards (which is included in typology), the decoration on the neckguard, temples, etc (also included in typology. All these issues make the Sisak gravitate towards the F not the C.

I also understand that you are trying to say that the Sisak helmet is a modified C or it evolved from the C. This is true but the same can be said of other Gallic helmets that were contemporary or came after the Gallic C.

Remember that the typology of Robinson is not a time evolution of helmets but feature based. The Gallic C did not necessarily come before the Gallic D. It may have but what makes them different is the features.

Re: Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia - Vindex - 05-27-2012

Quote:

The issue with the neckguard for instance, the Gallic C has a larger sloping neckguard. It appears that in the supposed Gallic series, it is the D and G with the smaller neckguards and the C and H with the larger neckguards. I dare say more so than the Sisak helmet you are showing. It appears that the Sisak helmet's neckguard is in between the known Gallic F and the Gallic C,D.

There's also the Brigetio variant of course which is classed as "J" and is in the museum at Caerleon. (Apologies for the poor photograph but the lighting in the museum is not good!)