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+--- Thread: Linothorax again (/showthread.php?tid=2083)
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 08-21-2005
"Henequen" is another word for the Agave (or Maguey) cactus. (It may be technically a succulent). We call its fibres sisal (been there, pulled the spine off, seen the thread, and the paper and the soap, drunk the tequila, gave the palenque to my wife!) From what has been said, however, it seems clear that the armours being described by the Spaniards
are of cotton - Algodon in Castillian.
We've had discussion of how a linothorax must be of linen, to include the stem of the word, linen and then how this is not necessarily so when cuirasses aren't always made of leather, but now someone's mentioning "muslin linen" which is canvas. Linen is made from the Lin plant (flax) Lin-linen c.f. wood-wooden. I don't know whether muslin is a kind of linen or a kind of cotton, but isn't canvas, by definition, cotton?
Antonius, if you no longer work for a living, (Quote from "The Life of Brian" "You lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky, b*****d!") knocking out armours would be an honourable way to spend your retirement. Knocking out aspides would also be of great benefit to homo re-enactus.
Paul
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 08-21-2005
Sorry,
Got my Antonius confused with my Aquilius, there. (YES, thank you, I can tell my anus from my humerus).
Most of the time.
Paul
Re: Linothorax again - Matthew Amt - 08-22-2005
A little textile terminology help, here. Many words are used today in ways there were not used originally! We should probably stick to using "linen" to describe only fabric from the flax plant. Nowadays, bedsheets are often called "linen" even though they are usually cotton or polyester. In the 20th century, cotton took over as the popular fiber (for many things!) simply because it was easier to process (by machine).
"Muslin" is a weave, not a fiber. Originally I believe it was generally made from flax, but today is usually cotton. It is thin and light, usually a little sheer, definitely not a good choice for armor!
"Canvas" was originally the term applied to a heavy cloth made from hemp, I believe. Again, today it's usually cotton, though I have seen linen canvas. Depending on how it's made, it isn't necessarily scratchy, though it does tend to be stiff.
If the inside of a linothorax (glued or whatever) is too harsh for your skin, just wear it over a soft wool chiton. (Yes, ancient wool was apparently not as "scratchy" as modern wool!) We have a type of armor described as "linen armor", and several references to people "armored in linen". Sure, we'd love to know if it was glued, and if so, with what, and how thick it was, but why keep trying to come up with reasons why it must have been made of some other material?
By the way, in the early Middle Ages, cotton was very rare in Europe, a luxury fabric that had to be imported. During the Crusades, it was discovered that raw cotton (the unspun "fluff") made good filler for padded armor (often called a "gambeson"). It became an alternative to layered linen, heavy felt, and other things that had been used to make the gambeson. And it became known as an acketon, from the Arabic word for cotton, "al-qutun". So cotton does have its uses! Flax "tow" was also used in similar ways, being the unspun leftovers from flax fiber processing--it's vaguely similar to cotton fluff but coarser and sort of "hairier". Tow can also be spun into thread or cord, though it makes a rougher fabric than regular linen.
Whew! I THINK I got most of that right! Not a hardcore textile person myself, but I have a lot of friends who are.
Khairete!
Matthew
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 08-23-2005
Quote: If the inside of a linothorax (glued or whatever) is too harsh for your skin, just wear it over a soft wool chiton. (Yes, ancient wool was apparently not as "scratchy" as modern wool!) We have a type of armor described as "linen armor", and several references to people "armored in linen". Sure, we'd love to know if it was glued, and if so, with what, and how thick it was, but why keep trying to come up with reasons why it must have been made of some other material?
Thanks Matt. Exactly what I was thinking. It seems to be a HUGE red herring to try and invent reasons why flax was not used in the linothorax.
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 08-23-2005
Totally agree with the two previous post. and i will throw another into the mix, The ancient Scythes knew how to weave twills so i would assume that the greeks did too! If you think that the difference between a light cotton shirt and a pair of denim jeans is the way they are woven could also effect the strength of linen quilting.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 08-30-2005
Hi guys after vacations I am back!
Mathews post shed a lot of light and the record straight I believe.
Now in answer to Ralf´s post:
If I recall correct the Oracles response to Aegion is dated to the Archaic era. Aegion was evolving from a simple trading post after the Delphic holy war and could not field enough hoplites.
At that time the semi-legendary Argive king Pheidon is credited with the creation of the hoplite phalanx using round shields. It was not wise at the time to say anything offensive to the Argives much less to mess with them. Until they met their Waterloo at the hands of the Spartans at Thyrea at 530 B.C. they were the most effective army in Greece at the time.
The Argolic land has good quality soil the makes refined wines in Nemea and the best melons in the world! The land allowed and still allows easier pastoral activity than the rest of the Pelopnissos. At that time the two rivers Inachos and Charadros made the soil richer than today.
The Sikyonians , Toroneans, and even maritime Corinthians would be wise and sell their products cheap to the Argives and even bribe them to keep Pheidonean "epilektoi" in their barracks. That until Thyrea of course.
The place gave good crops of flax. The argive shields were mostly white with a yellow or golden snake depending on personal finances and two snakes if you were in the nobility. The nobility and the epilektoi could afford white chitons. Speculating I can say that it is not impossible to even "sandwich" metal between the linothorax layers and have an external white layer. There is nothing also nothing to stop them from painting metal white.
I guess the epilektoi at least could afford it. I guess the Oracle poetically refers to them.
As I said to previous post I believe that cotton might be more available to Hellenistic Greek or before that to Kyreneans Athenians or Cretans
Cotton Hmm possibly as a present to the Argive king.
Kind regards
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 08-30-2005
The linothorax was not made of metal with an outer layer of cloth. There is a comprehensive body of evidence against this theory. The most obvious of which is the tendancy to reinforce the linothorax with scale.
Re: Linothorax again - Comerus Gallus - 08-31-2005
I wonder if Philip II macedon cuirass or thorax fits in this thread?
Because is all in metal, and here are talking about the same type of armor but in other way of construction.... Hmmm???
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 08-31-2005
Dan I agree that the most obvious method is to externaly reinforce the cloth with scales.
BUT, is there any evidence to suggest that small "Pylos-type" scales cannot be "sandwiched" between layers of cloth? Has anybody tried it and find it impossible?
Yes pictorial evidence support mostly the "straight" linorthorax or externally reinforced linothorax but according to may archaologists only 10% of art and knowledge about ancient peoples made it to us. So what I speculate might not be unlikely.
An example of "sandwiched" armor was the gambeson of Saladin that he would wear and apear unarmored according to chroniclers. Are we supose to think that he was the first to have such thing?
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 08-31-2005
Remember our Greek freinds liked the 'brazen' shine of armour and that metal scales on the outside would be more attractive than material.
As far as evidence the killing of the leader of the Persian horse Masistus at the battle of Plataea, The Athenian hoplites could not understand why they could not stab him to death until they realised that he had scales underneath his tunic, showing that they were not farmiliar with such a practice. (Herodotus 9.22)
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 08-31-2005
Quote:An example of "sandwiched" armor was the gambeson of Saladin that he would wear and apear unarmored according to chroniclers. Are we supose to think that he was the first to have such thing?
Saladin wore a khazaghand - mail sandwiched between two layers of cloth. Mail wasn't invented until after the time period we are discussing. You can't make armour with scale sandwiched between two layers. The action of the plates will tear out one of the layers. It is possible to fix plates to the inside of a cloth garment so long as there is no liner though.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 09-01-2005
Thanks for reminding me of the Masistios case Jason.
Dan I know of the mail time scale I was just speculating about the use of scales before that.
In your reply you mentioned:
"...It is possible to fix plates to the inside of a cloth garment so long as there is no liner though...".
Excuse my poor english-but'what what exactly do you mean here?
Scales can be sewn in the cloth if there are not interconnected?
Did I understand this correct?
Please assist.
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 09-01-2005
Brigandines and Coats of Plates were made by attaching overlapping plates to the inside of a foundation garment (usually canvass). The bare plates would rest against whatever arming garment was worn underneath. These types of armour had no liner since the action of the plates would tear it out. The same thing would happen if you tried covering scale armour with cloth. I'm not sure what you mean by "interconnected" but if the scales don't overlap (e.g. "Braveheart" armour) then they would make pretty lousy armour. They would lose a lot of strength (since a single plate must take the full force of a blow and the impact will be transmitted directly through to the wearer rather than being dispersed among the surrounding plates) and there would be too many gaps.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 09-02-2005
Thanks Dan you really helped!
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-22-2005
I did an experimet. Hope it might help
I used a large.square of wild thick flaxen cloth.
I folded it until it gave me 16 layers.
It resisted forks knives, butcher knives in violent cuts a thrusts.
A lether worker´s thin wedge penetated easily.
One knife penetrated not in aviolent stroke but after sticking it and pushin persistently through the layers. I speculate that in the clash between 2 phalanxes the hoplites aim was to jab quick aiming for place uncovered by armor or if your spear found resistance on a body you continiued to push till you skewered the target. Also the wedge thing made me think why the sarrisa with its thin conic point was considered deadlier than the leaf-shaped spear point.
Kind regards