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+--- Thread: Linothorax again (/showthread.php?tid=2083)
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 08-18-2005
Gaius(Ralf) might be right about my poncho.
(terpentine or terebrint)-I found their translation on my dictionary but I do not know what exactly they are. Guess I have to ask the hardware store.
After following Ralf´s post it seems to me that composite materials might be the answer to the linothorax riddle.
If I have guessed correctly the layers are:
Human skin-woolen chiton-simple flax-kamvas-brine soacked flax-kamvas.
The whole staff then quilted. Something like leather or fine flax must be the layer touching the chiton. I speculate that based on my experience that kanvas is irksome and unpleasnt even over a denim jacket.
Jason´s experiment showed that linen is "arrow resitant" and Ralf showed that under conditions its "blade resistant" too.
I also feel that light infantry might not be so "light" after all.
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 08-18-2005
Has anybody got any archeaological evidence for the salt soaking from the 5th century?
Jason
Re: Linothorax again - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 08-19-2005
Jason,
I took my thought from Diaz, as I stated. His references to cotton armor are made in a matter-of-course way such that the reader is assumed to be familiar with the process, which is common knowledge. The brine soaking is used in the context to attest to its quality, and is sometimes omitted from English translations, I noticed. Mine comes from an Argentine edition with the original Castilian on one page and English on the other. And someone borrowed it and I need to get it back.
I know of no archaeological evidence, and I suspect there is none. I hope I am wrong on this and someone else has something. Salt on fabric would naturally be assumed to be from natural sources during the in situ interment and probably not noted. Allowance must also be given the scarcity of ancient fabrics. My tests were done on speculation and do not prove anything.
What we really need is a sealed chamber with a skeleton wearing full equipment clutching his dated detailed discharge papers, and a stack of issue equipment receipts next to it. Plus his illustrated autobiography.
Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)
Who still has his equipment issue records from 1970 listing things I never received, that I was made to pay for on discharge.
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 08-19-2005
Are you sure that the armour in question was made from cotton? South American cloth armour also extensively used maguey fibres which might react to salt differently.
Re: Linothorax again - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 08-20-2005
Dan,
"...as there is much cotton in the country around Havana, we made ourselves well-padded armour." -- Diaz pg. 55 Penguin edition, 1963, which is the only translation I have quick access to. There are multiple references to cotton armour in this edition, which is not indexed and I would have to re-read the whole thing to find them all.
Cotton is native to Mexico and is found as far north as Colorado by the 11th century. Coronado's expedition notes it appearance in the (now) Albuquerque area.
From Arms And Armor In Colonial America, H. Peterson, 1956, the only major work on the subject, I quote this quote "... and Rodrigo Ranjel returned to the Governor (de Soto) and had him draw out more than twenty arrws which he bore fastened in his armour, which was a loose coat quilted with coarse cotton." (from Oviedo, Narrative) pg. 125, if you can ever find a copy. (I know where one isfor sale, BTW).
From Peterson (I summarize) the term used escaupiles is found in Spanish inventories in Florida and was cheap and polular. My sources dont seem to question the fiber as anything other than cotton. The Spanish do distinguish a coarse and poor quality fabric henequen from what is commonly translated as "cotton".
Doesen't help with the Linothorax stuff much... but...
Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 08-20-2005
Cotton is mentioned when Alexander reached India.
Is there any reference that Greeks Egyptians or any Asiatic culture had access to it before the 4th century B.C. ?
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 08-20-2005
If the linothorax was made from cotton they would not have described it using the root word for flax.
Re: Linothorax again - Carlton Bach - 08-20-2005
Quote:If the linothorax was made from cotton they would not have described it using the root word for flax.
Why not? The cuirass uses the root word for leather ('cuir'), yet for most of its history it was a metal item. 'linothorax' only proves that it involved linen at some point.
However, I would need some convincing that cotton is actually going to perfporm better than linen in that armour because if it doesn't, there would be no need to replace an easily available staple (flax) with an exotic and expensive import (cotton). Some Hellenistic tinkerer must have tried it, but would the outcome have justified the cost and trouble?
Re: Linothorax again - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 08-20-2005
Quote:However, I would need some convincing that cotton is actually going to perfporm better than linen in that armour because if it doesn't, there would be no need to replace an easily available staple (flax) with an exotic and expensive import (cotton).
I used materials that were easily available to me, muslin linen, which has a medium texture like something homespun. And it is made from cotton. It was the closest approximation I could get given what I know about fabrics which is not much. I encourage you to expierement on your own and do your own tests and report them back.
Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 08-21-2005
cuirass is not a greek word it comes from the French term for leather and the production of cuir boli (leather boiled).
The Greek word for armour is generally thoraxes but there are a few variations non of which are cuirass. I am fairly certain that the greeks were aware of cotton they called it 'tree wool'.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 08-21-2005
Greeks seem to have been aware of cotton after Alexander conquered Indian lands. So I guess cotton was available to Greek troops of the Asiatic Hellenistic kingdoms. If cotton found its way through the "silk road" to the Mediterranean it must have been terribly expensive.
So I ask again if there is any evidence to suggest that cotton was availble to Greece or Egypt before 400 B.C. ?
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - Antonius Lucretius - 08-21-2005
Quote:So I ask again if there is any evidence to suggest that cotton was availble to Greece or Egypt before 400 B.C. ?
Actually there is. Cotton was already known in the Indus valley round 3000 BC and the Egyptians used it too from that period onwards. But in the West it was indeed a costly material.
I think using cotton for armour would have been costly and useless since I suspect linen (flax) fibers are more resistant than cotton fibers.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 08-21-2005
Egyptians using coton from 2000 B.C at least! Thats intersting.
I imagine than that Kyrenean Greeks and Kretans would be the first to come in contact with the staff.
If I recall correct in Mathew Amt's page there is a link to a reconstructed Egyptian cuirass but I do not recall if it was cotton or flax.
I suspect though that coton might be the layers closer to the body because kamvas is uncomfortable as I have mentioned earlier.
Thanks Antonius and I agree with your reservations that cost and strength of cotton might have been against it.
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 08-21-2005
Egyptians using coton from 2000 B.C at least! Thats intersting.
I imagine than that Kyrenean Greeks and Kretans would be the first to come in contact with the staff.
If I recall correct in Mathew Amt's page there is a link to a reconstructed Egyptian cuirass but I do not recall if it was cotton or flax.
I suspect though that coton might be the layers closer to the body because kamvas is uncomfortable as I have mentioned earlier.
Thanks Antonius and I agree with your reservations that cost and strength of cotton might have been against it.
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 08-21-2005
This doesnt help the question but it's a neat quote--
Response to Aegium from Delphi oracle, not dated:
The best of all land has the Pelasgian Argos,
the best horses the Thessalians, the best women the Lacedamonians.
Those who drink the water of fair Arethusa are better men,
but still better than they those who live between Tiryns
and Arcadia rich in flocks:
the Argives in their armor of linen, the goads of war.
But you, men of Aegium, you are neither third nor fourth
nor twelfth: you are not on the list.
This is quoted in the new relaese Soldiers and Gosts: A History of Battle In Classical Antiquity, J.E. Lendon, 2005, ISBN 0-300-10663-7. HIGHLY recomended read.
Hoplite14gr, you live in Greece. Is there anything peculiar to the Argive homeland that may explain the reference? Like what grows there? Or were they big time importers of Egyptian cotton?
There is flax canvas sold at the Art Supply joint which I do need to buy supplies from. (I don"t have to work for a living anymore (ha! ha!) and am taking bronze casting and painting this semester, while converting the garage into a bronze working shop.) I will do some tests on the flax and see what happens. I am tempted to buy one of the new sewing machines that duplicate hand stiching and crank out a few armors.
Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)