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+--- Thread: Linothorax again (/showthread.php?tid=2083)
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 01-15-2006
Quote:I'm thinking "I don't know", mostly. It just strikes me that there seems to be no evidence to link the word linothorax with the cuirass with shoulder-yoke and pteryges, and most of the literary references are earlier than the armour.Pausanias decribes linen armour being used both for war and hunting (though he reckons that it was more useful for hunting) during his own time and says that multiple examples could be found in the temple at Gryneum. While he doesn't specifically use the term "linothorax" he comes close - hoi de thôrakes hoi linoi [1.21.7] They were definitely made from linen, not leather.
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 01-16-2006
Dan, is there no evidence to support the suggestion that the same type of armour might have been constructed of leather at a later date?
Re: Linothorax again - Duncan Head - 01-16-2006
Quote:Pausanias decribes linen armour being used both for war and hunting (though he reckons that it was more useful for hunting) during his own time and says that multiple examples could be found in the temple at Gryneum. While he doesn't specifically use the term "linothorax" he comes close - hoi de thôrakes hoi linoi [1.21.7] They were definitely made from linen, not leather.In the first place, what Pausanias actually says is "Linen cuirasses are not suitable for combat, since against a forceful blow they let the iron through", which is not saying that they were used in war; rather, it imples that perhaps they weren't.
Otherwise, "They were definitely made from linen, not leather" once again begs the question of what "they" were. I don't doubt that linen armour existed. But what type was the linen cuirass Pausanias was writing about that was used in his day? Was it the hoplite's "shoulder-yoke" cuirass? Pausanias is writing in the 2nd century AD, so we can't assume he was necessarily referring to an Archaic-Classical Greek armour. A few decades before Pausanias, Arrian (Techne Taktike 4.4) refers to linen cuirasses, thôraxi ... linois, being worn in his day - but only mentions them being worn by cavalry, not when he discusses hoplite armour, even though he specifically mentions some items of "ancient Greek" hoplite equipment like the Laconian pilos. I don't know what type of armour he's referring to, but this context suggests it's not the old Greek shoulder-piece corselet; and I am inclined to doubt if that's what Pausanias means either. Does the fact that linen armour existed in the 2nd century AD tell us very much about what hoplite armour in the 5th century BC was made of?
The Gryneion sanctuary examples Pausanias says that he has seen may be more useful, since they are presumably older than his day; but of course we don't know what date they were from, or even if they were Greek, as opposed to, say, trophies taken from foreigners and dedicated (like Amasis' linen cuirasses in Herodotos 3.47.2-3). So it's just more confirmation that linen armour existed, not that the cuirass with shoulder-yoke and pteryges worn by 6th-5th century hoplites was linen.
Quote:I’m unfamiliar with the reference in Pollux's Onomastikonto the spolas could you elaborate a bit? Outside of Xenophon the only other reference I’ve seen is one from Aristophanes and in that context the implication seems to differentiate it somewhat from just clothing.
I only know the Pollux reference through the footnote in JK Anderson's Military Theory and Practice in the Age of Xenophon, I fear:
Quote:Xenophon speaks of the spolas[44], which was made of leather[45]. Other authors mention linen corslets, but we can only conclude that they were made to the same pattern as the leather ones; at least the monuments do not distinguish them.
Fn.44: Xenophon Anabasis iii, 3.20; iv, 1.18. The spolas of Aristophanes Birds 933 ff., is apparently some sort of weather-proof jerkin, not a piece of armour.
Fn.45: Pollux Onomasticon vii, 70 quoting Sophocles (frag.10).
As far as I know, Pollux isn't available online. Anyone got access to a printed copy?
cheers,
Duncan
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 01-16-2006
Quote:Dan, is there no evidence to support the suggestion that the same type of armour might have been constructed of leather at a later date?There are multiple references to linen armour but I can't think of a single reference to leather armour in Aegean in the Classical era (I don't think spolas refers to armour). There isn't any iconographical evidence that could be unambiguously interpreted as leather either. I find it hard to believe that leather armour was never worn but it doesn't seem common and without references there is no way to know what it might have looked like.
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 01-16-2006
Thanks, Dan. What about references to the hellenistic period?
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 01-16-2006
Good question. I have no idea.
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 01-16-2006
Anyone?
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 01-21-2006
I have been looking for three years and have found no literary quotes from any greek period that refers to leather armour.
Re: Linothorax again - conon394 - 01-21-2006
Jason Hoffman
How do you interpret the ‘spolas’ in Xenophon Anabasis at 3.3.20 and 4.1.18 if not referring to leather armor?
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 01-22-2006
Hi I am in the process of moving so all my books are in boxes so i cant find the reference i want but i do remember a quote where two guys give a spolas to a begger to make him go away and are not concerned because it is a thing of little value, there is also a quote where a greek who was out with the scythes (?? i think) is embarresed that he has only a spolas to wear instead of a linen tunic.
These quotes do cast some doubt over the spolas as armour or just a leather jacket ???
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 01-23-2006
Agreed. It is unlikely that the spolas is a piece of armour. I am thinking that it is some sort of poncho or cloak - perhaps treated to be waterproof.
Re: Linothorax again - conon394 - 01-23-2006
My sense of Xenophon at 4.1.18 is that he very defiantly means the spolas to be understood as something that might have been expected to have stopped the arrow that killed Leonymus along with his rib and aspis. At 3.1.20, Xenophon has the spolas as alternative to a thorax, but still a type of amour. Overall I think he means it to be understood as amour, but not distinctly lighter than what one might visualize as a thorax (say a muscled bronze cuirass).
I agree that in other contexts spolas certainly seems to refer more generally to a leather (or hide) jacket, but that would hardly make it unique in the Greek Lexicon. Hoplon equally has both definite military connotations and more general uses as well.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 01-23-2006
Dan ponco is a valid speculation but I think that spollas was leather possibly used for padding under the armor initialy.
Kleonymos bought it from a Kardouchian longbow.
First Crusade troops faced a unit called "naida" Kurdish (Karduchians) auxiliaries of the Slejucks. Archeres used their feet to bent the bow for power nad distance. Xenofon too mentions Karduchians using the foot.
We are talking special situation here.
Kind regards
Re: Linothorax again - Duncan Head - 02-06-2006
Someone on another forum recently mentioned press reports from last year of a newly-translated papyrus fragment of Sophocles' Epigonoi - the Independent on Sunday story can be found at http://www.gradewinner.com/p/articles/m ... _n13620017 - the original on http://news.independent.co.uk/ requires subscription. The fragmemnt includes the lines:
Speaker B: "And the helmets are shaking their purple-dyed crests, and for the wearers of breast-plates the weavers are striking up the wise shuttle's songs, that wakes up those who are asleep."
Now, I've banged on previously about there being hardly any evidence for linen thorakes during the Classical period, but "breast-plates" that are woven can hardly be anything else. (It would be great to see the Greek, but so far I haven't).
Of course, the Epigonoi is a play on a legendary subject, and it's just possible that Sophocles was inspired by Homeric and other earlier references to linothorakes, rather than drawing on contemporary practice; but it does seem much more likely that he is reflecting real 5th-century woven armour.
cheers,
Duncan
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 02-07-2006
This is good as it adds to the body of evidence. However all we have is an English translation and not the original text. We would need to see the original Greek term to confirm. If the term is a derivative of something like thorax then we have a winner.