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Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 05-10-2012
Hello there,
Do any of you know literary sources from the top of your head about:
- The loss of Crassus' standards
- The return of Crassus' standards by the Parthians
- The loss of the eagle of the V Alaudae during the Clades Lolliana
- The eagles of Varus, aside from Florus (just about the loss, not the recovery; and miserum me, I don't have the AWM issue about Varus at hand at the moment!)
- Any other significant event involving standards (not "just" about a battle, but with more importance)
Thanks in advance!
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-10-2012
Hmmmm, off the top of my head I am thinking it was mentioned in Casears Civil Wars or Bellica Gallica.
(Crassus that is), Varus, possibly in Tacitus...I can' t recall if I read other sources that mentioned off the top of my head, sorry.
The V Alaudae, possibly in Tacitus too...
But I could be wrong, memory can be a mean trickster.
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Vindex - 05-10-2012
Reference to Varus in Suetonius' Life of Tiberius Ch 17 and 18, although standards not mentioned specifically.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Tiberius*.html
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Quintius Clavus - 05-10-2012
The so-called Lollian Disaster of 16 BC - in which Legio V Alaudae (temporarily) lost its eagle - is described in most detail by Velleius Paterculus in his history Book II, Ch 97. Other ancient writers, like Cassius Dio, Tacitus and Suetonius only mention it in passing. I did not get a chance to look at Pliny's Natural History, which also allegedly has a mention of the Lollian disaster.
I would not be a bit surprised to also find information on Tiberius and the recovery through negotiation of the eagles from Crassus' army during the reign of Augustus. I did not do a search, but since Paterculus is often criticized by modern historians for being a writer who praised Tiberius over much, incidents in Tiberius' life such as this might well figure in more detail than in other later writers. The one thing Paterculus has going for him is that he was much nearer the actual events than any of the big 3 - Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio.
Tacitus is the primary source for the recovery of 2 of the 3 eagles lost in the Varian Disaster, by Germanicus' troops. One was recovered from the Bructeri and the other, IIRC, from the Marsi. Only one legion's number is mentioned - the 19th - whose eagle the Bructeri had. I believe it is Tacitus, during Claudius' reign, who mentions the recovery of the third eagle from the Chauci (it is assumed though the tribal name is open to perhaps multiple interpretations). Tacitus also mentions recovering a few captives from the long before battle who were very old men at that point - this late in Claudius' reign.
The texts (in the original and in English translation) can be found on the LacusCurtius website.
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 05-11-2012
@Byron; I was looking for somewhat more specific references but thank you anyway. But is Carrhae/Crassus mentioned in Caesar's works? I read De Bello Gallico a few weeks ago and I can't remember seeing that; wouldn't know about De Bello Civili. It would surprise me in any case.
@Moi: Yes, it's really about the standards so they need to be mentioned. But looking for the passage you refered to, I came across Tiberius (III.)9.1, so thanks.
Your thought about Velleius and Tiberius is a useful one, Quinton, thank you (and so is the reference to II.97). My focus ends at Augustus' death, so the recovery of the Varian standards is outside my scope.
And I thank the gods for the existence of LacusCurtius, which I have used a lot the past few months. :-D
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-11-2012
Yes, I know it is not specific, but I am answering off the top of my head.
mile: Read it some years back, so could be mistaken. But, considering it was his sponsor, I can't see it would not have been mentioned in his journals. It was certainly part of his plan to go and take Parthia and avenge Crassus.but like i said, memory can play tricks.
mile:
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Vindex - 05-11-2012
Quote: @@Moi: Yes, it's really about the standards so they need to be mentioned. But looking for the passage you refered to, I came across Tiberius (III.)9.1, so thanks.
Close and almost a cigar...not bad for my memory though :wink:
I also thought there was a reference in the Life of Augutus but now I'm not sure if that wasn't just Robert Graves/I Claudius!
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-11-2012
She says, gazing at the open book on her table beside her... :-P
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 05-11-2012
Quote:Yes, I know it is not specific, but I am answering off the top of my head.
but like i said, memory can play tricks.
True, but on the other hand; Crassus was already dead by the publication, so one can wonder whether or not Caesar would've found it necessary (or: would have felt obliged) to mention him. To avenge Crassus seems to me only an excuse to go to war with the Parthians, to further enrich and empower himself.
I did a quick search for his name and you are right, in De Bello Civili III.31 it is mentioned that Crassus was killed by the Parthians. :-) Unfortunately Caesar does not elaborate the point...
Quote:I also thought there was a reference in the Life of Augutus but now I'm not sure if that wasn't just Robert Graves/I Claudius!
Another point gained for your memory - there is a reference at 21.3, but I already had that one.
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-11-2012
Ah well, thats it then. :-)
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Vindex - 05-11-2012
Quote:She says, gazing at the open book on her table beside her... :-P
Calumny!
hock: I remembered it and then looked it up to be helpful...which it wasn't but now it is because there's another reference in the HELPFUL link :wink:
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Vindex - 05-11-2012
Quote:
Vindex post=312618 Wrote:I also thought there was a reference in the Life of Augutus but now I'm not sure if that wasn't just Robert Graves/I Claudius!
Another point gained for your memory - there is a reference at 21.3, but I already had that one.
See GJC! <imagine rude, infantile gesture>
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-11-2012
Quote:Gaius Julius Caesar post=312619 Wrote:She says, gazing at the open book on her table beside her... :-P
Calumny!
I remembered it and then looked it up to be helpful...which it wasn't but now it is because there's another reference in the HELPFUL link :wink:
:mrgreen: Right i must bow out before I get in more trouble tonite!
Sorry i couldn't help, and well done Vindex!
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 05-11-2012
I'm grateful to anyone who wants to help. :-)
Re: Signa - late republic and reign of Augustus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-11-2012
Did you see what Tacitus had to say?