+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt (/showthread.php?tid=20519)
Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS - 03-20-2012
Can anybody tell me where to find a photo of the intact Roman vexillum that was from Egypt?
Thanks, M.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Sean Manning - 03-20-2012
The original publication with (black and white!) photographs was M.I. Rostovtzeff, "Vexillum and Victory," Journal of Roman Studies Vol. 32 (1942) pp. 92-106. There is a tiny modern drawing in Bishop and Coulston. I think someone on this forum posted a colour photo, but it may have been lost in a migration.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Peroni - 03-20-2012
![[Image: vexillumegypt-1.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/vexillumegypt-1.jpg)
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Alanus - 03-21-2012
Ta-Dah!
Thanks, Adrian. :grin:
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - M. Demetrius - 03-21-2012
To me, the most notable thing about this vex is that it is absolutely NOTHING like the ones we make for our units today. Oh, well. It's so far beyond my artistic ability that it's not even worth talking about making one like that.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Renatus - 03-21-2012
There is a verbal description here:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=view&catid=20&id=244936#244962
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Doc - 03-31-2012
I am glad someone has revived this topic otherwise I was about to make a new topic about the Vex. flag from Egypt :roll:
The description given for the flag found in Egypt suggests that the lower end had remains of a fringe. Was this fringe a different color than the rest of the flag (the description does not mention anything about the nature of the fringe). However, by looking at the picture from the little that can be seen, it appears that the fringe was just the continued frayed edge of the flag not an added French divan fringe that everyone else seems to use.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - S. Marcer - 04-01-2012
Ciao Doc,
Actually seeing the photo of the Egyptian vex seems that there is a continuity between the material of the flag and the fringe, and not added.
The same can be said for the vexillarii of the Adamklissi monument (Metopa 26, 41 43) similar to the Egyptian one: same morphology, gamma figures in the corners…
Nevertheless the ones represented on Trajan's Column (Ex. scene 3 and 5) seems that the fringe is an added element, the inferior edge of the vexillum is well accentuated.
Best
S.M.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Doc - 04-01-2012
Ligus,
Thank you for the pics and information. It appeared the same to me as I mentioned but was not sure. I think it is best to use the actual evidence found at least with respect to the flag itself. I wonder if it is logical just to put the gammodia in the corners and just the Capricorn in the center and not include the writing. AFAIK, there is no evidence of putting the legion name or number. I am not saying that putting the name and number is wrong, it's just the evidence is lacking. As always we assume that there must have been because we would do it.
Maybe there is written evidence to suggest there was name and number???
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Draconis - 04-01-2012
wow really nice artwork on the Vexillium... is it painted on or sewn in? The Vex found in Egypt might have had a decorative fringe on it but I'm wondering if it was ripped off? Has anyone ever found an intact fringe? Does anyone know what the fringes were actually made from? I'm thinking that if it involved braided gold thread or fine gold wire, it would look amazing on parade, and tempting to someone looking for ready loot. If so it would explain why attached fringes appear on monuments but is missing on this one. Perhaps it was torn off to be melted down. Just a thought anyway.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - M. Demetrius - 04-01-2012
Here's what I conclude.
* You CAN make fringe from the threads of fabric. Blankets and saga with fringe are made this way. Linen does not have as large of yarn, but it can be done.
* Tearing cloth to remove gold thread yarn would not produce long threads at the point of the tear. Take a piece of woven cloth, make a small cut maybe 2 cm long, and tear it across its weave. Seamsters do this all the time to square up fabric for construction. (When you buy fabric at the store, they cut it with scissors, and the cut does not always follow the weave exactly) You will see that the tear is straight, and there are short free hanging threads at that point. But without removing more thread from the warp, you will not get proper fringe.
* We are trying to build a case that perhaps all vex banners were made in this format, while in fact, we only have ONE to work from. How many vexes and other legion, cohort, or other banners do we think existed over the years? What if this one was the "odd man out", and others did, in fact, have unit identifiers other than just a picture? How would we know? It's unlikely that any soldier from one legion would know what the vex emblem was from a legion he had never seen/met before, if the two were put on the same battlefield, seems to me. If banners were issued for each cohort, how many banners would there have been during Augustus' civil war? There doesn't seem to have been any Notitia Dignitatum during the Republic, Principate, or earlier Imperial times.
* The vex banner was designed to IDENTIFY a unit, with the purpose of making it possible to know who was where, or for a separated soldier to get back to his unit after the chaos ended, along with whatever other superstitious, traditional or religious reasons to have the particular emblem on the banner. No doubt a soldier would know his own, regardless of what was on it, but to find your own in an assembly of many cohorts on a battlefield would be very useful--even critical. Of course, this statement involves a bunch of "IFs", but suppose only ONE gladius had ever been found, or ONE helmet! Would we have to go with that one sample for all situations? or would we conclude that there may have been other helmets, as represented in the sculptural and artistic evidence. My guess is that the banners on Trajan's Column, and other sculpture had the logo painted on the surface, and now that information is lost to us, like much other color/detail information.
* * *
Our vex banner does not have a picture, partly because we have nobody in the unit who is of sufficient artistic skill to paint one, and partly because we want people to know who we are when we go out, so they can contact us later, and finally because I learned to hand letter with a brush when I worked a few years in a sign shop--back before computers did all the lettering.
Can I defend all those points against a concerted historist's attack? Nope. Not with facts. But it is why WE do what WE do. Others are free to do what they wish. Maybe if we ever get large enough to need a second banner, we will do something in that second one with some kind of artistic presentation. That would look very nice. We're making a new one now, and will probably put the Gammas on the corners, since many Roman objects had them.
We will sew on fringe, though, I think, since it's attractive, fairly easy, and can even be made from wool (or, I suppose, other fiber) yarn as needed. We will not use actual gold thread, though, just golden-colored fringe. Might use red, just to be distinctive, if the red matches the vex material.
I hand made the fringe on this vex banner. It's not perfect, but it's not supposed to be, either.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-01-2012
Looks pretty good to me.
Not too dis-similar to the images on the reliefs above.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Doc - 04-02-2012
David,
I agree that making things perfect would deter from reality. I however, also agree that the fringe would have been from cloth and not a precious metal.
Ligus thank you for the photos. After looking at your pictures I went ahead and did a google image search and found some interesting pics (I searched under Trajans Column Vexillum). There is a site (redrampant.com) where it shows different vexilla standards (I think some may be in B&C2) and also cites Suetonius and Tacitus as saying that the Vexillum had the name of the Legion and the name of the commander.
Now when you look at those pictures from that site, you can see that none of the depictions really have anything more than LEG...... with the lambdas and nothing more.
The Egypt flag has an image but I do not think (I am no expert here just making an argument) that this is being interpreted correctly by all of us making a vexillum. I know the ones on Trajans column are blank and so one can argue that an image plus the writing COULD HAVE been present.
However, this is how I see it. What is the most important reason to have a vexillum? Obviously unit identification. Therefore, there must be some kind of writing as evidenced by Tacitus and Suetonius along with the images I mentioned. Having a legion symbol all on its own (a capricorn for instance) without any writing would make no sense because in the end, it was irrelevant to anyone other than those weilding the flag pole or marching under that flag. In other words, if you showed up with a vexillum flag and a certain number of men, and that flag had a capricorn and nothing else on it, then it begs the question from others observing this column of men "where the hell are these guys from" since there was more than one legion sporting the capricorn. Thus, IMHO, the Egypt flag was nothing more than a legionionary flag not so much for identification of a particluar legion but as homage to the goddess Victoria.....similar to the imago carrying around the face of the emperor. Basically veneration. It is also possible that the Egypt flag was just a flag and there was something else being carried beside it that gave the Legion, or unit, or detachment information.
Thus I think that the most accurate way of making a vexillum would be to just get a piece of linen, dye it red, since this is the best color we have to go on, fray the end or attach some kind of fringe (as evidenced by the sculptures or the Egypt flag), and either paint, put metal appliques, or sew on just the identity......LEG XI CPF. Also, including the lambdas would be viable because not only does the Egypt one from the 3rd century have them but also the depictions of the first century.
I am not discrediting the Egypt vexillum flag because it has similarities to many depictions but I would not use that to assume that all vexilla had an image and we just add the writing because it makes sense there must be some sort of description. If we do this, then we are making a hypothetical hybrid by taking one element with a picture and another from a depicition.
Peter Connolly mentions that a capricorn was found at Wiesbaden and from the looks of it from his book, could have been mounted on a pole to display the zodiac symbol of the legion. Maybe the vexillum pole could have had something like this on top instead of the spear point and underneath the flag? This too can be conjecture because all the depcitions show spear heads.
Some people take the main body plates of a scabbard and if anything is missing we can place reasonable replacement parts having the same motif since many swords had repeating motifs or images.
In the case of the vexilla, we are just adding elements at random.
My two cents
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Dean Cunningham metalsmit - 04-10-2012
"Nevertheless the ones represented on Trajan's Column (Ex. scene 3 and 5) seems that the fringe is an added element, the inferior edge of the vexillum is well accentuated."
Or this line represents a sewn line that prevents the fringe form creeping up any higher on the vexillum.
Re: Intact Roman vexillum from Egypt - Doc - 04-10-2012
I think it could be either or. Both methods are reasonable except freying the bottom edge is much simpler. If a fringe has to be added, first the material must be twisted to double on itself. Then it must be attached to some strip and finally stitched to the flag.