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+--- Thread: Thermopylae Film! (/showthread.php?tid=20247)
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Macedon - 02-13-2012
I still would love to see the other side of the story...
Imagine...
A dark line in the horizon as the camera swoops in towards the ranks of a Greek army, shields with demonic designs, those robotish Corinthian helms and spears held by tanned muscular hands, shouting in Greek... On the other hand the colorful, sunny, multiracial Persian army, speaking English (Persian), black people hanging out with whites, even Greeks among their lines accepted as friends, fighting against the lingering expansion of the Greek racist egaliterianism... Then the iron mass of the enemy charges in as the Persians valiantly give up their lives for honor, fiendship... finding no mercy at the hands of these beastly Greeks.
I think that the audience would not find it difficult to identify with the Persian side, we tend to side with the weak, so instead of stressing their numbers, let's stress their inferiority in hand to hand combat and BOOM! we have sympathy!.
Re: Thermopylae Film! - PMBardunias - 02-13-2012
Quote:Then the iron mass of the enemy charges in as the Persians valiantly give up their lives for honor, fiendship... finding no mercy at the hands of these beastly Greeks.
Please turn in your Greek card, I hereby revoke your greekness!
Actually I could see it work, but sort of an "all quiet on the western (Persian) front", where we follow a set of poor Immortals (damn, their government just thinks of them as a number)who are caught between viscious Spartans chanting their war-songs (think of the scene in Zulu) and their own leaders who blindly push (whip)them into the mouth of battle.
Maybe Terry Gilliam writes the screeenplay.
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Macedon - 02-13-2012
Quote:Please turn in your Greek card, I hereby revoke your greekness!
Dedicated to Demosthenes!
I'd still want Jennifer and Angelina in the cast though... Can I do the casting, guys?
Re: Thermopylae Film! - PMBardunias - 02-13-2012
Quote:I'd still want Jennifer and Angelina in the cast though...
If we cast them as the Immortals, would it be accurate to put them in bronze Princess Leia armor?
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-13-2012
Quote:Quote:I'd still want Jennifer and Angelina in the cast though...
If we cast them as the Immortals, would it be accurate to put them in bronze Princess Leia armor?
Jennifer is far too talented and multi dimensional as an actress for that. :-|
I was thinking more on the lines of a Spartan woman, excercising in sparta, in the Spartan way!
:razz: Angalina could pass as a Persian though! heh heh
Re: Thermopylae Film! - PMBardunias - 02-13-2012
Quote:Jennifer is far too talented and multi dimensional as an actress for that.
[attachment=2975]Leia.JPG[/attachment]
Evidently not! I forgot she did this.
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Dan D'Silva - 02-14-2012
Quote:Actually I could see it work, but sort of an "all quiet on the western (Persian) front", where we follow a set of poor Immortals (damn, their government just thinks of them as a number)who are caught between viscious Spartans chanting their war-songs (think of the scene in Zulu) and their own leaders who blindly push (whip)them into the mouth of battle.I was thinking earlier, you can make any "side" sympathetic in a war story by focusing on sympathetic individuals instead of the side as a political force. It's hard not to feel sorry for soldiers in a bad situation.
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Ghostmojo - 02-14-2012
Ignoring the names that have already been batted around then (like Willis & Clooney) - and bearing in mind as much as we know about them historically - who would make a good:
(a) Leonidas I
(b) Xerxes
© Demophilos
(d) Hydarnes
And any other historic figures you care to add, who may have been present at some point or other or nearby (Themistokles etc.).
Hurray for Hellenewood!!! :wink:
Re: Thermopylae Film! - PMBardunias - 02-14-2012
I nominate Liam Neeson for Leonidas. Forget that whole "this is Sparta" followed by a chorus girl kick thing. Leo/liam could just greet Persian envoys with some reworked lines from Taken:
"We don't know who you are. We don't know what you want. If you are looking for Tribute, I can tell you we don't have money. But what we do have are a very particular set of skills; skills we have acquired over lifetimes spent at war. Skills that make us a nightmare for people like you. If you go now, that'll be the end of it. We will not look for you, We will not pursue you. But if you don't, We will look for you, We will find you, and We will kill you."
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-14-2012
Quote:Quote:Jennifer is far too talented and multi dimensional as an actress for that.
[attachment=2975]Leia.JPG[/attachment]
[strike]Evidently not![/strike] I forgot she did this.
Ahhhhhh, such talent...... :| :| :| :wink:
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Draconis - 02-15-2012
Quote:Tom Gervasi post=306473 Wrote:How are people NOT going to root for the Spartans at Thermopylae??? You have a million Persians attacking 300 Spartans who are thumbing ther noses at them?Because the Spartans, although clearly heroes facing death etc., may not their favorite Greek state? It's not as easy as that - sometimes the loser is indeed not the one you root for.
Quote:People like underdogs. If you saw a fight between this one guy, holding his own against a whole gang of thugs and he's making them remember they were in a fight, who would YOU root for? The gang of thugs who out number this guy maybe 30-1 or that one guy?Thermopylae may not be such a clear case, But I'm surely rooting for the invader Alexander who defeats the Persians (the underdogs in this campaign no matter how you turn it). Likewise Caesar - sorry but I'm not rooting for the Celts, who were slaughtered in the end by the big nully Romans.
Quote: This was not some punitive raid either, you don't bring an army of a million men on a punitive raid.I really hope you do not take that number seriously. No ancient armies of a million men existed. Logistics would make that impossible. A hundred thousand would alreay be an immense army.
Quote:People love glorious and heroic last stands, history is full of them. Nobody ever roots for the big bullies who slaughter them in the end.Not always Tom. I think that the end of WWII was quite satisfactory. :wink:
A few things....
Outside of here, how many people in the general audience are going to have a favorite Greek City-state? Many school kids today don't even know where Greece is.
The numbers of Persians at Thermopylae is a subject of much disagreement, guesstimates are all over the place, many feel somewhere between 100,000-300,000. Contemporaryish guesstimates are much higher, up to 2,000,000. You would think that Xerxes would have had records relating to this undertaking as it would have required marshalling enormous resources to draft, arm and feed such an immense force. Maybe he did, lets hope they still exist and if they haven't been found yet, lets hope someone stubles across them. Bonus points for finding them within our lifetimes. Regardless if it was a million, 300,000 or even 100,000, the Spartans were in a pretty stark predicament which I'm sure none of them had illusions of walking away from. Even if it was less than a million, it still was not some raid to rob the 7-11 and go home, Xerxes was there to conquer.
As for WW2, there are just a whole list of reasons why the death of the Third Reich is irrelevant to what happened at Thermopylae. For a few: Germany pushed for war and got it, boohoo if they lost. They were quite possibly the only demonised enemy that proved to be even worse than the propaganda. Nobody, except some NeoNazi kooks miss Hitler. Its comparing the Greeks, led by a brave King, against an aggressive enemy outnumbering them by seriously long odds. Rooting for the Persians at Thermopylae is someting like rooting for Germany over Poland in 1939. So if Xerxes didn't have a million soldiers, 300,000 vs 300 is still 1,000 to 1, 100,000-300 is still 333 1/3 to 1. Not my idea of a good time.
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Robert Vermaat - 02-15-2012
Hi Tom,
Quote:Outside of here, how many people in the general audience are going to have a favorite Greek City-state? Many school kids today don't even know where Greece is.. OK, I misunderstood your point. You were speaking about the general public. In that case, I agree, it's more a case of popular subjects and indeed, Sparta is favourite no. 1.
Quote:Even if it was less than a million, it still was not some raid to rob the 7-11 and go home, Xerxes was there to conquer.[/quote} We agree there as well.I know. I was just answering your generalistic reply (Everybody likes the underdog) with a case of where that clearly doesn't apply!
[quote="Tom Gervasi" post=306830]As for WW2, there are just a whole list of reasons why the death of the Third Reich is irrelevant to what happened at Thermopylae.
But there are others. I really wonder for instance how the general (US?) public today sees the struggle between Native Indian and US cowboys. And there are other examples. But in the case of Thermopylae you're correct - the Spartans will always be seen a the 'good' side. As an experiment, I'd really like to see a movie in which the director manages to shoot the battle from a Persian point of view, AND still manages to paint a positive picture of both, or indeed of the Persian side. It would be a masterpiece.
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Dithrambus - 02-15-2012
Quote:Tom Gervasi wrote: So if Xerxes didn't have a million soldiers, 300,000 vs 300 is still 1,000 to 1, 100,000-300 is still 333 1/3 to 1. Not my idea of a good time.
It was not any number vs 300, there were roughly 7000? (or more) Greeks at Thermopylae and on the third day 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans remained in the pass with the Spartans (at least those Thespians and Thebans that had survived the first two days) Sorry, but this is something that frustrates me when people only refer to the 300 Spartans. :wink:
mile:
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Draconis - 02-15-2012
Quote:Quote:Tom Gervasi wrote: So if Xerxes didn't have a million soldiers, 300,000 vs 300 is still 1,000 to 1, 100,000-300 is still 333 1/3 to 1. Not my idea of a good time.
It was not any number vs 300, there were roughly 7000? (or more) Greeks at Thermopylae and on the third day 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans remained in the pass with the Spartans (at least those Thespians and Thebans that had survived the first two days) Sorry, but this is something that frustrates me when people only refer to the 300 Spartans. :wink:
I am aware there were others there at some point in the battle, but am not clear on who did what and where. My understanding is that a large number of Greeks were sent off to defend the goat track that allowed the Persians to trap the Greeks on both sides. Also, as you say Thebans and Thespians that survived the first two days were there. So is there any iddea of what remained on the third day to face the Persian army? I suppose that the heroic actions of the Spartan King, and of course, the message he sent back to Sparta, makes for a great story for novelists, Wrong but Wromantic, and the presence of other Greeks, equally heroic, have been treated as technicalities that dteract from the simplicity of image that the King and his bodyguard against an empire that makes for such an amazing story. I will admit my knowledge of the events is not as great as one who has clearly studied this more than I, but I would like to know more. Please set the record straight and tell us more about the other Greeks who fought there and deserve more of a place in history than they have been given. Who did what, where and when?
Re: Thermopylae Film! - Draconis - 02-15-2012
As far as a film that would give an account from the Persian perspective, one possibility would be to show it as a struggle between two Kings, two strong personalities, the irresistable force and the immovable object... a battle of wills. Alternate between them, their personalities and motivations, and the actions they take in that light and in response to those taken by their opponents. Like a chess game. I still don't think anyone's going to buy Greeks bad, Persians good, but they may buy heroism on both sides. They may also buy that this chess game being played between Kingsinvolves game pieces that are actually real people, with real lives, strengths, fears and dreams. As I suggested, along with this story of leaders, there can be parallel stories of foot soldiers on both sides and what it all means to them. At the end, I would imagine, the survivors would have to come away changed by the experience. The Greeks would have to be inspired by the bravery of all who fought and died there, inspired to distinguish themselves as well. Also they would have to be hearened that even though defreated in the end, the relative few who fought there did a great deal of damamge... the Persians are not invincible. The Persians would have to have serious respect for the bravery of the Greeks,and their willingness to fight to the last man. Also, I would think, they would have to wonder what a full size Greek army would do to them. It may be that Xerxes might have brgun his campaign expecting to annihilate the Greeks. Seems like most wars start with everyone expecting to be home by Christmas. I can't help but that think that after Thermopylae, it would be clear to him that this was not going to be a walkover. The point is a battle is not only fought on one side, and in many cases, there are heroes on both sides. It could not have been easy to see your fellows, ,aybe friends being slaughtered like shoving a pencil into an electric sharpener, then have to take your turn. It takes guts to stand your ground as well as to advance in the killing fields.