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Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Gaius Colletti - 12-31-2011
I know there is probably little evidence to base about how exactly long sleeve tunics were made (except in the archaeological section there is a thread on the 1700 year old tunic from Scandinavia) but what is recommended to make a long sleeve tunic, should it still be two pieces sewn together just with sleeves cut into the original pattern, or should it be like a regular rectangular tunic with sleeves sewn on separately?
Also these tunics are significantly shorter than a regular tunic, in the fact that they drop to the knee when untied?
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - M. Demetrius - 12-31-2011
There are some examples of long sleeved tunics from the Late Roman times, but those are probably shorter because they were worn over trousers/bracchae of one sort or another. The same would apply to the long-sleeved tunics of the Gauls of Julius Caesar's day.
Sometimes, evidently, the tunic was woven in one piece, like a cross, sort of, and the neck hole woven in. In those cases, the sleeves would be integral, and there would be no shoulder seam. My guess is that would be much more difficult for the weaver, and consequently would take more time, with considerable waste of warp thread. The more simple way of weaving would be to make two rectangles, for the front and back, and two rectangles for the sleeves. The sleeve can be tapered somewhat by sewing together along the angled line, and trimming the excess away after construction. This method would facilitate weaving rectangles, which are much easier than trapezoids, and would waste little of the cloth, and save trouble with fraying along the cut line.
Clear as mud? I did a search, and found these:
http://www.google.com/search?q=coptic+tunics&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=6FL&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Cxb_TpCrAsGusQLZq6jFBQ&ved=0CIYBELAE&biw=1366&bih=603
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Robert Vermaat - 12-31-2011
Hi Matt,
Asssuming you are referring to Later Roman long-sleeved tunics, I can tell you that several methods are found. Originally, such a tunic would be woven in one piece, sleeves and body.
However, we see also sleeves sewn onto a body, and I think I've also come across body pieces woven in two halves attached to each other.
Here's a very nice image of a Later Roman tunic:
http://www.szkagar.user.icpnet.pl/stroje/026.jpg
Tunic length is just above or just under the knee (don't make them too short), and width is relatively wide (halfway armpit and elbow), leaving relatively short but very narrow sleeves. It's a fashion thing. :wink:
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Cheyenne - 01-02-2012
Generally, the coptic tunics were woven in one piece, this would be the first incantation.
They were, however, modified a number of times as they were a very expensive garment and decoration would have been cut from an exhausted garment and sewn onto another plain one. The culture of reuse, and recycling would have meant that most of the examples we have in museums today would have been modified from an original. There are complete ones in the Petrie collection and they were from well preserved grave contexts where the dead individual would have been dressed in their best clothes.
Many of the childrens tunics were modified from other garments that had been worn many times.
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - M. Demetrius - 01-02-2012
What would be an expected price for a tunic like this today? Woven with sleeves as one piece, integral parts, that is. Go ahead. I'm sitting down.
BTW, Robert, that embroidery work is astonishing, isn't it?
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 01-02-2012
What about first century long sleeved tunics? Are sewed-on sleeves acceptable?
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - M. Demetrius - 01-03-2012
Acceptability would depend on your unit's rules on that matter.
Odds are, anyone who wanted to keep warmer in a cold climate could sew sleeves onto a tunic. Julius Caesars is said to have worn long sleeves, and Augustus is also said to have done so, but AFAIK, we don't know if they were sewn on or woven in.
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Cheyenne - 01-03-2012
Long sleeved tunics are more than acceptable to be sewn on for 1st C garments. I do this based upon the Marx eztel tunic (which was sleveless, but the undergarment was supposedly with sewn on sleeves).
Thorsberg sleeves were sewn on and the most up to date C14 AMS results suggest that its a bit older than was originally thought (earlier 4th century rather than later). Weaving clothes to shape in Egypt was seen later than the 2nd century, so to achieve any sleeved effect in garments, the construction was probably made up from a number of separate pieces.
What is interesting about the detail of sleeves and cuffs on statues and reliefs is that the sleeves are set with the seam at the back of the arm rather than underneath it.
A correct coptic tunic with the hand woven 'set in' design today, with all the correct dying and finishing would probably cost about 3 mths wages, at least I would charge around the £2500 - £3000 to make one.... So you can see how much one may have cost to a 4th century soldier....
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Graham Sumner - 01-03-2012
What about first century long sleeved tunics? Are sewed-on sleeves acceptable?
Are we talking Roman military tunics here?
There is little to go on archaeologically, therefore we are chiefly reliant on sculpture or other art forms or the brief mentions in literature.
I do not know of any existing examples of the large wide Roman tunics with sewn on sleeves. A much smaller tunic example from Mons Claudianis exists which is 'T' shaped, although it might be Hadrianic in date. That tunic had been constructed out of an old cloak. I would not like to say for certain who it belonged too originally, personally I would doubt it was a soldier. The site seemed well supplied in spite of its remoteness so there does not appear at first hand any reason for a guard to be wearing patched up clothing.
From sculpture the only soldiers who appear to wear long sleeved tunics in the first century AD are Auxiliary cavalry and that really depends on how you interpret the features shown around the wrists. They could be the turned back cuffs of long sleeved tunics or awards and it has also been suggested to me that they are gloves. It just goes to show how the evidence can sometimes be interpreted.
As 'sleeves' can be formed by the baggy sleeveless tunics when you tie them around the waist I assume that the mention of Caesar with loose fitting clothes meant he had a baggier tunic than normal, rather than one with fitted sleeves.
I also thought the reference to Augustus wearing more than one tunic in winter simply meant he wore more than one normal sleeveless tunic, rather than this being evidence for sleeves in the sense we know them. Again the wide nature of Roman clothing at that date provides 'sleeves'.
Graham.
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 01-03-2012
Yes, military tunics - is there more evidence for civilian sleeved-tunics, or just what you mentioned?
Interesting remark about Caesar!
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Crispvs - 01-07-2012
A typically wide tunic which covered the arms from mid forearm to mid forearm when standing in a cruciform stance with the tunic unbelted would probably naturally create elbow length 'sleeves' when belted and hitched up. Civilians would have worn their tunics full length and probably unbelted and so the natural fall of their tunics would have created 'sleeves' which would continue to extend almost to the mid forearm. If people wanted further cover for their arms and did not want to buy a barbaric tunic from a passing Gaul or German, they could simply put on a cloak (along with another tunic or two if they were feeling cold). They could combine these with enclosed shoes and calf length socks or leg bindings if they wanted to stay really warm. The same would apply to soldiers.
Crispvs
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - M. Demetrius - 01-07-2012
Good post, as always, Crispvs. Do you think the civilians didn't wear belts? I thought they did, though not elaborate belts like soldiers.
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Nathan Ross - 01-07-2012
Quote:Do you think the civilians didn't wear belts? I thought they did, though not elaborate belts like soldiers.So did I! I'd always thought that wandering around without a belt was rather slovenly - but perhaps that was just for soldiers...
Checking a couple of pictures from Pompeii, it seems that civilians could actually go unbelted. Myrtale's boyfriend doesn't seem to need one (or perhaps he's halfway through getting undressed?):
![[Image: lovers_painting.jpg]](http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/lovers_painting.jpg)
While in this scene, at least one of the men seems to be beltless, while two others have belts or girdles:
![[Image: gal_daily_games.jpg]](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/images/gal_daily_games.jpg)
I've seen the two standing men at left and right interpreted as soldiers, but this might just be because they're wearing belted tunics...
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Gaius Colletti - 01-11-2012
Quote:What about first century long sleeved tunics? Are sewed-on sleeves acceptable?
I remarkably missed this until now, but I found a picture of a a long sleeve tunic from Legio XX, presumably from the first century? Look next to the braccae picture
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/coldcloth.html
Re: Long Sleeve Tunic Patterns? - Martin Moser - 01-12-2012
Hi Matt,
that pattern looks a bit like one of the Thorsberg tunics. That would mean it is later, probably 3rd century.
Generally Roman tunics over time were composed in various ways. I know of the following from original finds:
Without sleeves:
- completely woven in one piece. Seams on the sides, sometimes the sides were left unsewn.
- made up of 2 pieces, sewn together on the shoulder and on the sides.
With sleeves:
- 4 pieces, body front, body back, 2 sleeves.
- completely woven in one piece, sleeves included. Seams under the arm and on the sides, sometimes the sides were left unsewn.
- 3 pieces, lower half of the front, lower half of the back, central piece (consisting of upper front, upper back and sleeves), woven in one piece
Most of the originals are dated late 2nd/early 3rd century and younger.