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+--- Thread: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. (/showthread.php?tid=19862)
Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Darth_Roach - 11-24-2011
..or tactics, or was it always a one-way interaction (barbarians copying Greeks on sight)?
We know they invented the "Thracian" and "Phrygian" helmets, as well as the kopis (sounds eerily similar to khopesh... maybe the Egyptians copied them too?), the tube&yoke (used from Gaul to the Tarim), greaves, the catapult (right after a besieging Carthaginian army left the walls of Syracuse - what a stunning coincidence. It almost appears they invented everything for the poor barbarians! How come?
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Macedon - 11-24-2011
They did. Examples that come to mind are the thureos shield, Persian cornel javelins, one of the suggested methods of mounting a horse was the Persian style, that is a groom helping up the rider in a certain way, the Seleucids are known for making up some mysterious body of men equipped in the Roman way etc. I am sure many more examples of adopted equipment and "tactics" could be brought up here. It is true however that they did lay the foundations for a great lot of things and tactics exported too.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Macedon - 11-24-2011
I was browsing through Herodot and also found a claim that the crests on the helmets were first used by the Carians as well as devices and grips for the shield...(Herodot, 1.171)
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Theodosius the Great - 11-24-2011
Possibly lamellar and mail armor during the Hellenistic era. The Seleucids had Cataphracts.
A gladius hispaniensis from the 2nd century BC was found in Jericho.
A curved Roman style shield was found in Fayyum, Egypt but it is uncertain from what century it originated.
Looking at all these examples the Romans don't seem so unique in adopting enemy weapons and armor. The Greeks were doing it long before they were.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Darth_Roach - 11-24-2011
Shield grips invented by the Karians? Does he mean shield grips in general (in which case, it's wrong), or the double grip of the aspis and such?
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - hoplite14gr - 11-24-2011
The only grip (lave) that existed before 800 B.C. - if we trust Herodotus - was a grip behind the the shield boss. Large shields were were also supported from a baldric (telamon).
According to Herodotus the Carians invented the arm loop (porpax) aand placed the grip to the right (internal) side of the shield (antilave).
Also Western Colonist Hoplites might have adopted Iberian or Celtic equipment pieces.
Philip II is said to have been murdered with a Celtic dagger.
Kind regards
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Dan D'Silva - 11-24-2011
A link between the khopesh and kopis is usually put forth as being the other way around, since the khopesh is the much older weapon; it was developed in the 3rd millennium BC in the Middle East. But Jeroen Zuiderwijk and others say that the kopis evolved separately, from enlarged knives. Even the names are only coincidentally similar -- kopis is Greek, meaning approximately "cutter," and I've always heard khopesh means [shaped like a] "foreleg."
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - MeinPanzer - 11-24-2011
Quote:..or tactics, or was it always a one-way interaction (barbarians copying Greeks on sight)?
We know they invented the "Thracian" and "Phrygian" helmets,
Most of the helmet types worn by the Greeks were "invented" in Greece proper, not just this one kind.
Quote:as well as the kopis (sounds eerily similar to khopesh... maybe the Egyptians copied them too?),
The origin of the kopis is a point of contention, since it seems to have appeared very early in Greece, Italy, and Spain. I'm not quite sure what the consensus is now on its origin, but Greece is as likely as the other two regions.
Quote:greaves,
Metal greaves were invented in Bronze Age Central Europe and seem to have spread southward in the Iron Age.
As others have stated in this thread, the Greeks adopted many elements of foreign armour (mainly Celtic, Iranian, and Italic) in the Hellenistic period. One major exception is the pelte, adopted from the Thracians already in the Classical period. For the most part, however, Greek warfare prior to the 4th c. BC was confined to the Aegean, with occasional exceptional episodes elsewhere in the eastern Mediterranean, so Greek soldiers rarely had contact with foreign enemies bearing entirely different arms in any large numbers.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Macedon - 11-24-2011
I don't personally think it really matters if he is archaeologically wrong, that is whether the Carians really made the inventions or adopted the grip themselves from someone else. What matters is that there was such a belief in Greece at Herodot's time at least among certain circles. It is just another example of a prominent Greek admitting to foreign imports in matter of military equipment.
We also have to add to this list the wedge cavalry formation which was admittedly (by the Greeks) adopted by the Thracians and Scythians.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Darth_Roach - 11-24-2011
The OP was somewhat sarcastic, in case you're wondering.
Either way, I find it hard to believe they invented pretty much everything.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Sean Manning - 11-24-2011
What is your evidence that Greeks invented the tube-and-yoke? Very early on we see it from Fars to Gaul, from Scythia to Cyrene.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Macedon - 11-24-2011
Quote:The OP was somewhat sarcastic, in case you're wondering.
Either way, I find it hard to believe they invented pretty much everything.
Actually, I did not! Why would you be sarcastic? It is true that Greeks did not as easily adopt foreign inventions as Romans did (at least according to Polybius, who praises the Romans for this specific trait). On the other hand this does not mean that they did not admit that they also, albeit more reluctantly, did too.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Darth_Roach - 11-24-2011
I did not mean adoption on the scale of the Romans - they lived quite well off Celtic and Iberian weapons and Samnite tactics.
Yet I find it hard to believe the many common arms (e.g. the kopis/falcata/whatever you want to call it - used from Persia, even India, to Iberia, from very early times)and armor (tube and yoke) were adopted by the "barbarians" from a rather isolated nation.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Macedon - 11-24-2011
Actually, I do not think that the Greeks are credited with the invention of any broadly used simple weapon. Every nation made spears according to their own needs, no one can say that the Greeks invented the spear, but Greek spears can have unique features. So do Persian, Roman, Gallic etc spears. Different lengths, diameter of the pole, wood used, shape of the blade, counterweight, metal, ironsmithing techniques. The same applies to other basic weapons like the sword, the kopis being but one of so many, the helm, the breastplate etc. Greek arms were as unique as Persian/Roman/Celtic etc arms were. If you concentrate on Greek arms then they were indeed "invented", maybe a better word would be "shaped" by Greeks. Adoption of foreign equipment was not that usual in the ancient world, as far as production in numbers is concened. A mercenary might have a Greek helm, that would not mean that the other Carthaginians, the Celts or Romans would mass produce it. An even better example would be the sarissa. Even though it dominated the battle-grounds of the ancient world for centuries, it was not adopted by non-Greeks (apart from very few cases) and even Greek states were slow in its adoption. And why even say that the sarissa was a Greek invention? The Egyptians were renowned for being armed with extra long spears centuries before that. This "myth" about Greeks being all-inventive and giving everything to everyone has nothing to do with history and is nowadays more propagated (as a counter-argument) by those who like to attack the importance of ancient Greece rather than by those who want to stress it. If we are talking about Greek warfare then it will be predominantly Greek. Other cultures will have other peculiarities in terms of both equipment and tactics.
And as far as Romans are concerned, they too shaped warfare to their own needs. they adopted much and then made them their own. Saying that they copied Samnite tactics is very risky, since we do not know more than simple Herodotian-like quotes. I would rather suggest that they may have copied some aspects of Samnite tactics and then adopted them to their own needs, organization etc., so that in the end the result was something Roman. The same applies to most things they did. I think that in terms of warfare, the Romans were very innovative.
Re: Did the Greeks ever adopt foreign equipment .. - Ghostmojo - 11-26-2011
Quote:The OP was somewhat sarcastic, in case you're wondering.
Either way, I find it hard to believe they invented pretty much everything.
Yeh like the running joke with Star Trek's Chekov character who claimed the Russians invented everything (except Shakespeare who was apparently a Klingon!!!)...