+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Reenactment (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Roman Re-Enactment & Reconstruction (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+---- Forum: Beginners section (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=31)
+---- Thread: Lorica hamata ring type (/showthread.php?tid=19426)
Lorica hamata ring type - M. Val. Naso - 08-29-2011
Hi there!
For mid-4th century western empire lorica hamata, is it acceptable, to make it from normal rings and spacers?
If my understanding is correct, legionnaries used normal rings and flat rings alternatingly in the mail shirt. I have one made from spacers and normal rings, is it authentic? I see no difference between mine and so-called authentic ones, except maybe, that my spacers were cut and then bended back, so they have a little cut in them.
Re: Lorica hamata ring type - jvrjenivs - 08-29-2011
Well, there are some different things that need to be taken into consideration.
-Pattern (how are the rings connected)
-Type of rings (flat solid, butted, riveted, combination of different types)
-Size of the rings (mostly stated by their Inner diameter)
-Pattern of the shirt (lenght, sleeves, doubler?)
All these specs are changing over time and opinions in what is acceptable differ. So, if you want a better opinion, you've to be a bit more specific about the hamata you got.
Re: Lorica hamata ring type - M. Val. Naso - 08-29-2011
Well, it's standard 4in1 pattern, their inner diameter is 7mm. It's sleeveless because of the pteryges, no doubling at the shoulders, the length I can vary, it is currently just above my crotch, I want to lengthen it to be below my crotch.
Types of rings: I don't really know the terminology, the round rings are made from wire (made with a bench-lathe), if you would cut them, their cross-section is circular, the spacers are flat, and were cut and stitched in the shirt, like the round ones. Their cross-section is like a tiny ractangle.
Re: Lorica hamata ring type - jvrjenivs - 08-29-2011
Okay, the 4in1 pattern is okay, as is the 7mm ID size, I would say. Most people regard butted mail (this means the non-solid rings are just bent close) inferior to riveted versions (where every ring is closed by a small 'rivet'), although there have been some speculations about butted mail in archeology as well. No double and lenght is okay, I would say, although I would add sleeves in a 4th century context.
Hope this helps.
Re: Lorica hamata ring type - M. Val. Naso - 08-29-2011
Thank you very much. Riveting is quite hard, and seeing the advancement of flexible, cheap, and durable armor starting in the 3rd century, I just can't put a statement in the correct palce. A guy from another 4th century group said, that we look good, we just need to get rid of this hamata (I took it quite personally). I really hope the authenticity does not suffer from this. Yes, they can ask, where is the riveting, but then 95% of the reenactors could just throw out their chainmail as well.
Re: Lorica hamata ring type - jvrjenivs - 08-29-2011
well, you have to take into account what 'cheap' means. I have the impression that we cannot put our modern view of value onto items. Nowadays, 'hours' count for most part in the price of a mail shirt, where I think that in ancient times most part was determined by its materials, less by the amount of work.
Well, I think your hamata will do, and lot of groups allow butted mail in their groups, but well, last couple of years riveted mail came available at a very good price, so some groups now prefer that one, as we simply have lots of evidence for riveted mail shirts.
Of course it always will be what you can afford, would like to pay, etc. Secondly it also differ from area to area how people view fact like this, I get the impression.
Re: Lorica hamata ring type - Cavok - 01-13-2012
I was at a do at Künzing in Bavaria and got to look around the Museum.
Took this photo of some Hamata on display.
Riveted.
I have seen some finds of Butted Hamataa somewhere as well. Don't know if it might have been in Eichstätt (found in Pfunz) Will have to trot along and take a look.
If anyone wants the original pic to zoom in on easier drop me a PM with your mail addy.