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Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - MVinc - 07-26-2011
I have two basic questions for this issue:
1. I have noticed that many artists draw roman tunics red for centurions and white for common legionaries. Is there any reference for this, or is it just "how it could look like"?
2. Did centurions of this period still wear something on their helmets? Hairs from the horsetail or feathers?
See this picture, there is ceturion fighting in the front rank. Is this Niederbieber decoration possible? Are there any references?
I would like to ask you for advice again!
Thank you.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Graham Sumner - 07-26-2011
Hello Martin
You might find my book 'Roman Military Dress' published by the History Press of interest.
I tried to include everything I could find on Roman tunic and cloak colour and the evidence is presented so you can make up your own mind.
There are also two Osprey books due out soon by Raffaele D'Amato on Roman Centurions.
Graham.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - MVinc - 07-26-2011
Quote:You might find my book 'Roman Military Dress' published by the History Press of interest.
I know about your book Mr. Sumner and now I realised what I forgot to read. :roll: I will check it as soon as possible certainly. Thank you!
Quote:There are also two Osprey books due out soon by Raffaele D'Amato on Roman Centurions.
Thanks for this information. I noticed there is a new book about centurions on the Osprey site and I was wondering if there are more going to be released. So I will wait.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Albertomv - 07-27-2011
Roman Centurions 753-31 BC, the Kingdom and the Age of Consuls goes on sale next month (august) and Roman Centurions 31 BC-AD 500, the Classical and Late Empire (february 2012)
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-27-2011
I look forward to seeing these two! Thanks Graham and Alberto! :-)
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Paul Elliott - 07-28-2011
1. Current thinking, pioneered by Graham
is that soldiers wore red tunics in battle and white tunics for ceremonies/off-duty. Centurions may also have worn red cloaks. 2. Possibly not, crests are fitted to these new heavy-weight helmets, but fittings for them are rare/not yet found? But certainly crests were at times worn. Personally I doubt a transverse crest. Rank in the 3rdC seems to have been communicated through better quality equipment, red belts, fancy brooches, phalerae etc.
Not sure about the helmet decoration your talking about, can't quite see it ....
EDIT: If you mean the centurion's red crest ... yes, a brooch was found decorated with that exact style of helmet, with a crest fitted. Its in the last edition of Bishop & Coulston, and there may be a photo on the web somewhere (Mike Bishop has put lots of illustrations from the book online IIRC).
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Paul Elliott - 07-28-2011
Lovely painting of the Battle of Nisibis, BTW. Love the kit detail, buckles, armour etc. Feast for the eyes!
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - MVinc - 07-28-2011
Thank you for reply! Yes I love this picture too!
I would like to add the third point.
If you look carefully you can see that some of soldiers in the picture wear greaves. Do you know something about this? For example, one pair of iron greaves was found in MuĊĦov (Czech republic). My question would be: Who did wear them? Were they commonly used by regular infantry or were they rather a part of centurion equipment?
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Paul Elliott - 07-28-2011
At least one set of greaves are depicted on the grave stone of a common soldier, and they are shown in battle on the Adamklissi monument back in 100AD. Iron greaves of that type were found at Kunzing/Germany dated to a third century conext. In all it seems they could now be worn by common soldiers, probably front-rankers in particular.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - MVinc - 07-28-2011
Thanks! I will probably draw a picture of late 2nd century legionary and I was not sure if i can include greaves.
And I have even fourth and fifth point to discuss.
What about pteruges? The same question. Is it possible for common soldier / centurion to wear them? I saw that some soldiers on M.A. Column wear pteruges but I know that this piece of art is not so accurate if we want to use it as reference for military equipment.
The last thing is a bit out of scope of this topic. Did Romans always wear some form of padded cloth or something under their armour? I think this question is most suitable to answer for reenactors.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Paul Elliott - 07-28-2011
For pteruges it seems that common soldiers were wearing them off and on in the Principate, as the 'apron' fell out of fashion they may have been worn more often by troops in segmentata, but by as the 3rd century progressed, chainmail/hamate grew longer than before and made pteruges a little bit redundant.
Like greaves, they could be worn by soldiers in the late 2nd/3rdC.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - MVinc - 10-10-2011
Quote:1.
EDIT: If you mean the centurion's red crest ... yes, a brooch was found decorated with that exact style of helmet, with a crest fitted. Its in the last edition of Bishop & Coulston, and there may be a photo on the web somewhere (Mike Bishop has put lots of illustrations from the book online IIRC).
Hello, I have returned to this topic because I have made a little break in my research and now I would like to know something. I am really interested in that source (brooch) for Niederbieber crest. Can someone please show me the picture? I would really like to see it.
EDIT: Unfortunately I dont have latest version of Bishop and Coulston and I dont know where to search for that brooch.
Thank you.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Paul Elliott - 10-10-2011
![[Image: brooch3rdc.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/lord_mithras/Roman%20Artefacts/brooch3rdc.jpg)
"Brooch in the form of a helmet with crest".
Quote:Mithras post=292754 Wrote:1.
EDIT: If you mean the centurion's red crest ... yes, a brooch was found decorated with that exact style of helmet, with a crest fitted. Its in the last edition of Bishop & Coulston, and there may be a photo on the web somewhere (Mike Bishop has put lots of illustrations from the book online IIRC).
Hello, I have returned to this topic because I have made a little break in my research and now I would like to know something. I am really interested in that source (brooch) for Niederbieber crest. Can someone please show me the picture? I would really like to see it.
EDIT: Unfortunately I dont have latest version of Bishop and Coulston and I dont know where to search for that brooch.
Thank you.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - MVinc - 10-10-2011
Thank you very much... ehm, you are quite fast. It seems I am lucky you are online.
I should buy this book soon. It seems really helpful to me.
Thanks again.
Re: Centurions (late 2nd century AD) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-10-2011
I have not seen that broach before, but the helmet looks a lot like a Neiderbeiber
especially the ear guards..
Just read the other posts...guess that is! Awesome!!