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+--- Thread: Scutum Question (/showthread.php?tid=19086)
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Scutum Question - rrgg - 07-05-2011
Quick question for Roman Reenactors, Do you find it more effective to hold the shield punched forward or close to the body? If the latter, does the center grip on the scutum serve a different purpose than the one on say, a viking-style shield or buckler?
![[Image: 450px-AdamclisiMetope36.jpg]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/AdamclisiMetope36.jpg/450px-AdamclisiMetope36.jpg)
Re: Scutum Question - jvrjenivs - 07-05-2011
Close to the body you need less strenght in your arms to hold the scutum and you're better able to receive blows onto it.
Re: Scutum Question - M. Demetrius - 07-05-2011
Right. And closer in, you can use your shoulder and knee to support the top and bottom of the shield, adding in your body weight to absorb impact.
I don't quite understand the question about the center grip. Can you explain, rrgg?
Re: Scutum Question - rrgg - 07-05-2011
As I understand it, the purpose of the so called "punch grip" compared to a shield strapped to the arm is that it allows the wielder to hold his shield far out in front of him while dueling or skirmishing to provide a more aggressive defense against attacks.
[img width=200]http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/armour/hoplite/hopangl.gif[/img]
This appears to be the case for medieval bucklers or dark age round shields, but Roman soldiers like the one above tend to be shown with their shields pressed flat against their bodies, apparently leaving their heads and legs completely exposed.
The second question is why was the scutum held by a center grip in the first place if strapping it to the arm would provide more strength against blows?
Re: Scutum Question - agrimensor - 07-05-2011
with the center grip and holding it as a suitcase you can use the scutum offensively to. Lift it and puch to the troat of your oposer. As someone told me, and last weekend we tryed it and it works, and stil there is enough guard.
try it.
vale
Re: Scutum Question - PhilusEstilius - 07-06-2011
I think that having a shield strapped to the arm and then getting an enemy spear stuck into it might proove to be a problem if you wanted to dump it fast.
Re: Scutum Question - Crispvs - 07-06-2011
Quite simply, a centre grip allows for more dynamic use of the shield. Although I have severe reservations about the commonly spouted idea that it allowed the boss to be punched into an enemy face, a centre grip does allow for a more mobile and dynamic fighting style, whereas a phalanx style of fighting requires shields which stay where they need to be while you fight in a rigid formation. In theory at least, the Roman legionary had three feet either side of him to move in, whereas the phalangite was literally shoulder to shoulder with his fellow soldiers.
With a centre grip, the Roman scutum could be held in the very secure and effective defensive manner Jurjen and David described, but if necessary could be employed in other ways, both defensive and offensive, whereas a shield such as the Greek and Hellenistic Aspis was designed for a different style of fighting and could not be employed in such a variety of ways.
With regard to exposed legs, in a situation where battle lines are facing off against each other, if anyone was stupid enough to lean over in order to try to attack his opponent's lower leg, he would be unlikely to avoid receiving deadly or incapacitating head or neck injuries and thus the lower legs were probably not so much of a problem for an infantryman. Why cavalry might not protect their lower legs is perhaps a better question to ponder.
Crispvs
Re: Scutum Question - garrelt - 07-06-2011
Quote:Quite simply, a centre grip allows for more dynamic use of the shield. Although I have severe reservations about the commonly spouted idea that it allowed the boss to be punched into an enemy face
Crispvs
I agree about this.
If you want to hit your opponent with your shield use the rim.
With a smaller shield, round or square, used in this way you can easily knock someones (gladiator) helmet of his head or break his/hers nose if you want to.
Using the boss(umbo) has not that kind of impact.
A shield strapped to your arm restricts movement in certain ways, but you have to get used to it.
These are good for riders because you have a hand free for the reins.
Do a field test to see how deep an arrow, spear or sword penetrates a shield.
In tests that we did some years back, several arrows shafts shattered on impact with the shield or the boss, some only went trough 5cm (60 pound arrows, 50pound bow, 20meters distance, 9mm/75cm diameter birch plywood linen covert flat round shield).
Lower leg protection.
There are several accounts of lower leg protection being used in the first 2 lines of an infantry block.
For cavalry use none, but it could be that riders used leather or felt "gaiters" or wore calf length leather boots.
We sure need more pictures of re-colored statues.
Re: Scutum Question - Medicus matt - 07-06-2011
Quote:If you want to hit your opponent with your shield use the rim.
And die horribly shortly afterwards when his friend to his right stabs you with a spear. ;-)
Close for defensive work (although never clamped to the body unless you're receiving a charge, as this restricts your ability to move it).
Not so close, but angled across yourself when on the offense.
Flapping around on the end of a fully extended arm....never.
Re: Scutum Question - jvrjenivs - 07-06-2011
Quote:A shield strapped to your arm restricts movement in certain ways, but you have to get used to it. These are good for riders because you have a hand free for the reins.
Although I like my small round shield strapped to my arm in Late Roman cavalry impression, I wouldn't strap a bigger oval shield to my arm when on horseback. When you fall of the horse this will easily result in a broken arm. Not something you would like, I guess.
That being said, I wouldn't strap any big shield to my arms, anyway.
Re: Scutum Question - garrelt - 07-06-2011
Quote:garrelt post=291340 Wrote:If you want to hit your opponent with your shield use the rim.
And die horribly shortly afterwards when his friend to his right stabs you with a spear. ;-)
It works in a one on one fight, in a line use the biggest shield that you have and hope that the person next to you defends your weak points.
Re: Scutum Question - garrelt - 07-06-2011
Quote:garrelt post=291340 Wrote:A shield strapped to your arm restricts movement in certain ways, but you have to get used to it. These are good for riders because you have a hand free for the reins.
Although I like my small round shield strapped to my arm in Late Roman cavalry impression, I wouldn't strap a bigger oval shield to my arm when on horseback. When you fall of the horse this will easily result in a broken arm. Not something you would like, I guess.
That being said, I wouldn't strap any big shield to my arms, anyway.
Depends on how big your shield is.
Maximum size would be around 65cm wide/diameter, otherwise you don't have enough room to move with it.
The only person that I personally saw falling of a horse broke his weapon arm at the elbow joint.
Nothing wrong with the shield arm, but I think he had his shield suspended from a shoulder strap and not strapped to the arm.
During a film shoot, in a forest, I once went over backwards, in full gallop, from a horse carrying a 60 by 120 cm flat oval shield on my back.
The speer shaft, 2.5cm ash, got caught in the undergrowth and broke in two in that process I hit my head against a tree and went flying.
No saddle only a woolen blanket and no helmet and I only had a splitting headache and was not allowed back on a horse for at least 3 weeks.
Back on a horse again a week later.
The shield held my spine in place and broke the fall.
Crew came checking, ambulance on its way, still on the ground my first question was :
Did you get it all on Tape, sadly no film in the camera :?
Well Jurjen there is only one way to find out :wink:
Learn how to fall and be careful, because there is not a single rider around who has never fallen of a horse.
Re: Scutum Question - Medicus matt - 07-06-2011
Quote:It works in a one on one fight
Ah, true. I suppose all answers on this thread should be qualified in this regard. If you're in a duel, use the shield offensively as well as defensively. In a line, keep your place, cover as much of yourself and the man next to you as you can, don't step out of line and do try to stab the other bloke in the face or legs.
Re: Scutum Question - rrgg - 07-08-2011
If you are in a battle line though and your opponents have more reach (spears, longswords, etc.), do you still keep the shield defensive or is it needed to fight your way in close?
Re: Scutum Question - jkaler48 - 07-08-2011
Have used the scutum to deflect spear and then step closer to opponent for the kill before spear could be pulled back for another strike. (needlefelt combat Lafe Ark)