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+--- Thread: Late Roman belt (/showthread.php?tid=18854)
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 10-17-2011
I saw this rather lovely set at the Crypta Balbi museum in Rome last week. No find location cited though, anyone recognise it?
Re: Late Roman belt - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-17-2011
Yes I do!
Someone I know has a very nice reproduction of this belt.
I don't know the details of the original though.
Re: Late Roman belt - markusaurelius - 10-17-2011
unusual placing of the belt plates as well. Wonder if the museum just placed them like that or if that was how they were found......
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 10-17-2011
Quote:unusual placing of the belt plates as well. Wonder if the museum just placed them like that or if that was how they were found......
That's why I want to track the find's origin if possible, to see if it's just license on the part of the museum.
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 10-23-2011
Looking at the Zengovarkany belt from Hungary, I suspect the small round studs on the left hand side of the skeleton are sword suspension studs.
![[Image: Zengovarkony2.jpg]](http://romanarmytalk.karwansaraypubli.netdna-cdn.com/media/kunena/attachments/6240/Zengovarkony2.jpg)
I made up a reconstruction to test this. I don't have access to identical parts (
) but used silvered propellor fittings and a reconstruction of the buckle found at Baydon, Wiltshire (also silvered)to test out the suspension method.I think it works well- see pics below.
![[Image: Shiledandsword003.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/Shiledandsword003.jpg)
![[Image: Shiledandsword005.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/Shiledandsword005.jpg)
Re: Late Roman belt - markusaurelius - 01-10-2012
Quote:I saw this rather lovely set at the Crypta Balbi museum in Rome last week. No find location cited though, anyone recognise it?
Not to open up two arguments on the same post (cross strap & belt placement), but I
wonder if there is some truth to the placing of the belt pieces from the Crypta Balbi museum. I located this Late roman belt piece while cruising the web. I could not understand how the side of the piece had a spot for a loop attachment, when all other reconstructions showed that the two flat ends of the belt piece were mated together. Either together on either side of the main belt piece, or together on on side (something I could never figure out the purpose of).
Having the two belt pieces on either side like in the museum display would seem to support the belt piece with the end loop. If the belt plates were placed in the order that they were, on either side, then the end loop could have acted as a "Cross strap" attachment to help hold the belt up, or as an attachment point for one of the sword attachments as shown from the Bog finds from Illerup.
The two tie loops at the top of the Saxon belt also support the use of a "cross strap" style Baltius to hold the belt and sword up, as the weight of the sword attached to the belt, would certainly pull the belt askew without it. This late roman belt from Leiden, also has three loops, possibly for a similar use, two for the baltius/cross strap and one for the sword (although the leather and placement of the parts are clearly a museum creation)
[attachment=2527]LateRomanBeltLiedenwthreeloops.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=2528]illerupexample.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=2529]Lateromanbeltplatewloop.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=2530]crossstrap.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=2531]crossstrappossible.jpg[/attachment]
Re: Late Roman belt - M. Val. Naso - 01-26-2012
The Zengovarkony-belt (we use this, since we are from Hungary) was the thinnest of all belts in that period. I seriously doubt, that they would have hung the sword directly from the belt, not from a shoulder-balteus.
Re: Late Roman belt - markusaurelius - 03-29-2012
Further support of some use of a cross strap comes from these late Roman mosaics images. Quite a few of them that don't have a cloak hiding the left side of the body, show cross straps that are the same color as the belt. Some that have the cloaks, show a glimps of the red near the neck on the right side hiding the red cross strap.
Perhaps the cross strap was used when a sword was suspended from that side, to help support the weight.
[attachment=3568]agrigento307.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=3569]agrigento320.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=3571]agrigento309.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=3570]arm.jpg[/attachment]
This mosaic image from the time of Theodoric also shows a cross strap with the belt
[attachment=3572]500-520-theodoric.jpg[/attachment]
As well, the Stilico_diptych shows the sword suspected on some type of strap attached to the waist belt.
Re: Late Roman belt - Virilis - 03-29-2012
Thanks Markus, this is really interesting! This could also solve my problem of the belt slipping down with the lorica squamata
...
Re: Late Roman belt - Robert Vermaat - 03-29-2012
Quote:Further support of some use of a cross strap comes from these late Roman mosaics images. Quite a few of them that don't have a cloak hiding the left side of the body, show cross straps that are the same color as the belt. Some that have the cloaks, show a glimps of the red near the neck on the right side hiding the red cross strap.I'm not so sure about that. You call it a cross-strap, I call it a baldric.
Also, when not wearing armour, the belt does not need any cross-straps to support it, this only occurs when it's worn over armour. This is also why I think that the Piazza Armerina mosaics show baldrics, not belt supports.
Re: Late Roman belt - caiusbeerquitius - 03-29-2012
Ahh! What I hadn´t notied ever before is that the strap ends seem to be just as long as those from the 3rd c. belts, and they are also tucked under the belt and have a loop above the upper rim. :-)
Re: Late Roman belt - Robert Vermaat - 03-29-2012
Quote:As well, the Stilico_diptych shows the sword suspected on some type of strap attached to the waist belt.It's surely an interesting one, but it's not a 'cross-strap' as you show in the Piazza Armerina images. It's not very tight, eithr?
[attachment=3574]Stilico_diptych_waist.jpg[/attachment]
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 03-29-2012
I think it's just a fairly poor attempt to show a sword suspended from a seperate waist belt running through a bridge/slider, worn low on the hip.
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 03-29-2012
Quote:Also, when not wearing armour, the belt does not need any cross-straps to support it, this only occurs when it's worn over armour.
Is there any evidence that these belts were worn over armour?
Quote: This is also why I think that the Piazza Armerina mosaics show baldrics, not belt supports.
If they are baldrics, where are the scabbards?
Re: Late Roman belt - Robert Vermaat - 03-29-2012
Quote:Well, from the same Piazza Armerina...Robert Vermaat post=309929 Wrote:Also, when not wearing armour, the belt does not need any cross-straps to support it, this only occurs when it's worn over armour.Is there any evidence that these belts were worn over armour?
[attachment=3575]2.jpg[/attachment]
Apart from that, with all the bits and bolts attached to such belts, it would be fairly impractical to wear your armour over it.
Quote:Good question. None are to be seen, even when we are certain that the figures depicted are soldiers. Most of the time there's something in front (a man, cloak or shield), but when not, there's nothing to be seen. I think it has more to do with the artist not showing scabbards (or swords). A few spears are shown, more shields, a helmet or three, but no swords/scabbards.Quote: This is also why I think that the Piazza Armerina mosaics show baldrics, not belt supports.If they are baldrics, where are the scabbards?