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+--- Thread: Late Roman belt (/showthread.php?tid=18854)
Re: Late Roman belt - gaiusseptimiuslucianus - 09-11-2011
As promised, scans from the report on the Roman Zengovarkony graves in Hungary. The report is in Hungarian so if there is anyone who might be able to translate that would be super, Google Translate only goes so far... :oops: Also its an old report so the photos leave something to be desired. The citation is: Dombay, Janos. Késörómai temetök Baranyában, Janus Pannonius Múzeum évkönyve. Pécs, Hungary, Janus Pannonius Múzeum. 1957. pp. 181-330.
Here is the deposition of items in the grave:
[attachment=1681]Zengovarkony2.jpg[/attachment]
Here is the description. I made a paste up to fit in a smaller area, in the original report is covers pp. 204-207:
[attachment=1682]Zengovarkony1.jpg[/attachment]
Here is a photo of the fronts of the objects found, followed by the reverse:
[attachment=1683]Zengovarkony3.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=1684]Zengovarkony4.jpg[/attachment]
I'll post more commentary later, but I have to run right now.
Lucianus
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 09-11-2011
Thank you- that is a really interesting grave drawing as it appears that it has been little disturbed (e.g. the amphora strap end is exactly where you would expect it. The numbering seems to be different in the drawing and the photpgraph- is there a key to the drawing in the text?
As it happens, I am mid-way in re-constructing a very similar belt, with a British openwork buckle and I could use this to fill in the (many ) gaps. More info would be very much appreciated!
Re: Late Roman belt - Robert Vermaat - 09-11-2011
Quote:As promised, scans from the report on the Roman Zengovarkony graves in Hungary.Very nice, thank you! The only thing that I am surprised about is the position of the fibula - would it have slipped or perhaps have been repositioned by the finder- supposing it was to be worn with the cross pointing upwards instead of the other way around, as the artwork of these fibulae shows?
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 09-12-2011
Quote:The only thing that I am surprised about is the position of the fibula - would it have slipped or perhaps have been repositioned by the finder- supposing it was to be worn with the cross pointing upwards instead of the other way around, as the artwork of these fibulae shows?
Or perhaps the person dressing the corpse for burial wasn't that fussed about getting it the 'right' way up as it works as a brooch either way up?
Excellent information Lucianus.
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 09-13-2011
Or someone had turned it to look more Christian and placed it on his chest?
While I'm waiting for more detail on the Mansell grave, here is the Lanhills report. Its got a LOT of Late Roman graves.....and is downloadable as a pdf
http://library.thehumanjourney.net/607/1/WINCM_AY21.pdfA.pdf
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 09-13-2011
Quote:here is the Lanhills report. Its got a LOT of Late Roman graves....
Ahh, that's the 'baby' Lankhills. The main Lankhills report was published after the 1970s excavations; the one that details the big belt set.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pre-Roman-Roman-Winchester-Cemetery-Lankhills/dp/0198131771
Re: Late Roman belt - Crispvs - 09-13-2011
Looking at the photos of the Zengovarkony belt parts, I wonder now, as I have often wondered in the past, how the four narrow pearled pieces were attached. I can't see any means of attachment in the photos and wonder whether they might have been sewn over with thread to attach them. If so though, why use a method of attachment which differed from the method used for all the other parts?
I was also wondering about the small domed pieces. Does their positioning between the propeller stiffeners in the photographs reflect their positions in the grave or have they been laid that way simply for purposes of taking a more compact photograph?
Crispvs
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 09-13-2011
I think the small domed pieces are labelled 8 on the drawing and are on the belt itself on the left hand side of the skeleton?
Also the coins seem to be clustered together- to my mind suggesting that they were in a pouch attached to the belt just above the amphora strap end (which is exactly where you would expect it to be.
The astonishing feature of this grave to me is that the pieces don't seem to have been disturbed and were well excavated and well recorded- so giving us an excellent picture of the body and equipment.
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 09-15-2011
And coming back to Matts point on rosettes, the pouch ( if I'm right ) would be suspended by the dangling belt strap being knotted around the main belt. Tried this out and it worked well - very practical.
"Looking at the photos of the Zengovarkony belt parts, I wonder now, as I have often wondered in the past, how the four narrow pearled pieces were attached. I can't see any means of attachment in the photos and wonder whether they might have been sewn over with thread to attach them. If so though, why use a method of attachment which differed from the method used for all the other parts?" and Crispus poses a very good question, and I am no nearer being able to answer it. Any other ideas?
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 09-15-2011
Hard to tell, but they look to be hollow tubes made from rolled sheet, with an open seam running up the back?
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 09-15-2011
Yes, looks like that to me as well. If they were attached to the belt by a vertical thong around the belt itself, it could be a suspension device ? With the the open seam being used to release the suspended item( say a fire steel) by rotating the cylinder so that the thong would be released?
A reconstruction might give the answer...or at least a possible hypothesis!
Re: Late Roman belt - Crispvs - 09-15-2011
So might they then be evidence of decorated laces which might have been tied around the belt to secure some item or other?
Crispvs
Re: Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 09-15-2011
It's a theory that fits the available evidence and makes more sense than them being decoration that was just tied down onto the belt.
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 09-15-2011
Fancy making a couple to test it out, Matt? :wink:
Re: Late Roman belt - Caballo - 09-30-2011
" If they were attached to the belt by a vertical thong around the belt itself, it could be a suspension device ? With the the open seam being used to release the suspended item( say a fire steel) by rotating the cylinder so that the thong would be released?"
I think I gave an over- complicated hypothesis here!
Last year, there was an as yet unpublished find at Dyke Hills near Dorchester-on-Thames of a late Roman buckle , belt end plate, and small francisca. It's presently on display at the Ashmolean and when I go there next, I will take a photo.
The pictures I have seen show a similar cylinder with an open edge. But inserted into the open edge is a chip carved belt plates with rivet holes for belt attachments. My revised hypothesis is that on the belt above there was originally a plate inserted that has decayed- perhaps of bone?
What is also clear is that Dyke Hills near Dorchester is a major Late Roman grave site , and that there are numerous reports from antiquarian accounts of graves ( W. Morrison , BAR report). Unfortunately, the present owners of the land do not like archaeologists.....one day, hopefully, a proper dig will be allowed.