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+--- Thread: Any ancient writings about Pugios? (/showthread.php?tid=18614)
Any ancient writings about Pugios? - jkaler48 - 03-28-2011
Anyone recall anything written about the Pugio by ancient writers? Use in combat training or camp?
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - Forty-One - 03-28-2011
Apart from Josephus (Jewish War, III, 5,5) describing soldiers wearing daggers, all the literary references (in contexts where military daggers might reasonably be assumed) are to officer's daggers.
Caesar (de Bello Alexandrino, LII, 2) mentions a dagger being used in an assassination attempt on an officer. Also (de Bello Hispaniensi, XVIII, 2) he records one officer using one to wound a traitorous fellow-officer.
Tacitus (Histories, 1, 43) mentions a praetorian guard centurion tasked with bodyguarding Piso Licinianus drawing a dagger ("stricto pugione") against a violent mob.
Frontinus (Strategemata, II, 7,5) mentions Quintus Sertorius during a battle stabbing a messenger to death with a dagger to prevent him spreading the message and demoralising the troops.
Valerius Maximus (Memorabilia, 3,5,3) mentions Clodius Pulcher letting his wife wear his military dagger (he explicitly says "pugio militare").
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - john roberts - 03-29-2011
Was this Fulvia? Does Valerius go into why this happened? Was it because of danger, or were they just being the fun-loving, kinky couple we all know and love?
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - Sean Manning - 03-30-2011
Quote:Was this Fulvia? Does Valerius go into why this happened? Was it because of danger, or were they just being the fun-loving, kinky couple we all know and love?It was Fulvia, and the famous tribune of plebs. The Latin is not easy, but basically he says it was a favour and that Clodius attached it to her stola as an ornament (decus).
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - PhilusEstilius - 03-31-2011
There is a mention by Suetonius about Galba when he set off for Rome to become Emperor(So he put himself on his journey clad in his coat-armour, with his dagger hanging down from about his neck just before his breast
This is where I think that the dagger would be held on a type of baldric strap about the neck, and the bottom two rings of the scabbard being used to take two thongs tied around the chest to hold it in position. Indeed was this the way that Senators carried this weapon when they did for Caesar held without sound or sight under a Toga.
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - Crispvs - 04-04-2011
"This is where I think that the dagger would be held on a type of baldric strap about the neck, and the bottom two rings of the scabbard being used to take two thongs tied around the chest to hold it in position."
Exactly what Suetonius was describing is anyone's guess (he couldn't have seen it in person in any case so the description must have been at least second hand by the time he wrote it down) but this is certainly the way some Iberian warriors appear to have worn theirs so it is a possibility, although normal Roman practice would probably have precluded the use of the lower suspension rings.
"Indeed was this the way that Senators carried this weapon when they did for Caesar held without sound or sight under a Toga."
Um - can you cite a reference for this? Certainly the conspirators killed Caesar with daggers but how would we know how they were carried? They could just as easily have been carried by their attendant slaves and passed to them at a given signal. After all, personal slaves must have been constantly moving around during senate meetings, bringing writing tablets, books, refreshments and all manner of other things to their masters.
In reply to the original question, no, unfortunately we do not have any surviving ancient descriptions of how pugiones were intended to be used by soldiers. I live in hope though.
Crispvs
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - Graham Sumner - 04-04-2011
Hi
There is a legal document in which a cavalryman uses a dagger as collateral for a loan!
If I can put my hand on the reference I will post it, that is unless someone beats me to it!
Graham.
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - Crispvs - 04-04-2011
It was L. Caecilius Secundus, of the Ala Paullini, who borrowed a sum of money from an auxiliary infantryman and used a variety of items, including a silver and ivory inlaid dagger sheath as security for the loan.
The document is on papyrus and was dated 25th August AD27. The reference can be found in:
Harrauer, H. and Seider, R. 'Ein neuer lateinischen Schuldschein: P. Vindob. L135', Zeitschift fuer Papyrologie und Epigraphik 36, 109-120, 1977.
Crispvs
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - PhilusEstilius - 04-04-2011
although normal Roman practice would PROBABLY have precluded the use of lower suspention rings.
Is there a reference for this Roman practice or is it a personal assumption.
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - Crispvs - 04-04-2011
Well, we have been over this before on a number of occasions, but here it is again: :wink: .
All known Roman representations of pugiones attached to belts on which the detail can be made out (with the notable exception of Minucius Lorianus from Padova) show only the upper suspension rings actually connecting to the belts and the lower suspension rings hanging free. This would appear to be confirmed by surviving examples where the lower suspension rings show less wear than the upper rings. The prime example of this is the Velsen sheath which had iron upper rings and silver lower rings. The iron rings were quite worn but the much softer silver rings showed no sign of wear in antiquity, which they surely would have done if they had been used. Now this may be just a few examples with only one really conclusive example but it is still 100% more evidence for the lower rings not being used than anyone can offer for lower suspension rings actually being used by the Romans. Therefore we can conclude on the available existing evidence that it was probably normal Roman practice not to use the lower suspension rings.
As to Galba, as I said, Suetonius could not have seen it himself but presumably he based the description on something. The method you suggested is certainly one possibility and as some Iberian warriors in earlier times had attached daggers to baldrics using all four rings Galba could have done this (either following known examples or employing the possibilities afforded to him by the design of the sheath. I just think it is important not to box ourselves into thinking he must have done it one particular way when the description does not tell us specifically and could be interpreted in different ways as well (and still we are assuming that Suetonius was not confused over the detail anyway).
Did you find a reference for your statement about how Caesar's assassins carried their daggers?
Crispvs
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - PhilusEstilius - 04-04-2011
Crispvs.
What you mention about how the pugio was carried by soldiers is mostly correct of course which most are aware of, however if you back track and read again you will find that I do not imply that this was how Senators carried a Dagger and I don't think anyone would find such a reference to it anyway.
Then again not only Suetonius but most Roman writers give us secondhand information on many subjects.
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - Crispvs - 04-04-2011
My apologies Brian. I mistakenly read your "was this" as "this was" :oops: . This changes the meaning completely and I now realise you were putting forward a proposal rather than stating it as a fact.
Crispvs
Re: Any ancient writings about Pugios? - PhilusEstilius - 04-04-2011
There is no problem at all about that for we can all make mistakes even me, for indeed at one time I was conceited but now I'm just bloody perfect ha ha.