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Latinitas`s questions topic for his school report - Latinitas - 01-31-2011
Salvete,
I must make a school report on the Roman army from 30BC - 100AD to graduate from high school. It`s of course very important for me to make an authentic report. There are a few things I`m not sure about and it is my intention to ask them in this topic. Most of the questions are too small to ask in a single topic, and I`ve too much, so I think this is the best way to do it. I hope it`s no problem.
The first for now: there existed a lot of Latin words for the thrusting spear. One of those are: hasta, lancea and contus. What is the difference between those spears? I believe that the hasta was used by the soldiers of the republic (and therefore not interesting for me since I discribe the army from 30BC - 100AD). The lancea was used by the auxillary and the contus by the cavalry. Is this thesis correct, or were all thrusting spears the same?
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Matthew Amt - 01-31-2011
Goodness, that's a pretty broad topic! Presumably you don't have to cover it in much depth.
As I understand it, the lancea is a multi-purpose spear having a throwing loop or amentum attached. You can see it quite often in artwork (auxiliary grave stones, for instance). The hasta was meant as a thrusting spear. Note that Roman word usage might not be consistent! I think contos is a much later word, isn't it? Refers to the 2-handed lance used by heavy cavalry.
Good luck with the project!
Matthew
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Latinitas - 01-31-2011
Quote:Goodness, that's a pretty broad topic! Presumably you don't have to cover it in much depth.Yes, we have a schedule and must finish every week a part of the project. Therefore it`s difficult to cover those questions in much depth because this takes more time and that will cause problems in my schedule. I know this is unusual and hope nobody minds it.
Thanks! I`m a little bit confused about the contus; my Latin dictionary even tells it`s a throwing spear :o . It might be better to avoid such terminology problems, and keep it easier. Is it correct to write in my report that the lancea was used by the auxiliary since you can often see them portrayed with this type of spear, and that the cavalry used hastae since those hastae were used as a thrusting spear?
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Robert Vermaat - 01-31-2011
Hi Niels,
First of all, NEVER use a forum (not even RAT) as an opinion on which you can base a school report. Although there's a ton of knowledge here, it does not replace going to the library and digging in a good book or article. That of course can be provided here, but if I were your teacher I would never accept "they said so on RAT" as a reference..
About missile weapons and names, something I've learned from my discussions with Paul McDonnell-Staff is that the Romans did not use clear names for clear missile types. Any thrusting spear can be called a lot of things, and we are left none the wiser.
For a lancea, I think the best description would be 'throwing spear'.
For the hasta and the contus, the best description would be 'thrusting spear'.
For none of these we are told how they were to be used, nor about the length.
A pilum would be a throwing spear, but Arrian is usually translated with the pilum as a thrusting weapon as well. In my opinion though, the word Arrian uses ('kontos') refers to a thrusting spear, probably a hasta (my article here). But that's just my opinion, and others might disagree.
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Jona Lendering - 01-31-2011
Quote:First of all, NEVER use a forum (not even RAT) as an opinion on which you can base a school report. Although there's a ton of knowledge here, it does not raplace going to the library and digging in a good book or article.Exactly. The internet cannot (yet) be a substitute for an old-fashioned library. If the directors of schools argue differently, they don't know what they're talking about and are probably looking for a way to save money.
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Latinitas - 02-01-2011
Quote:First of all, NEVER use a forum (not even RAT) as an opinion on which you can base a school report. Although there's a ton of knowledge here, it does not replace going to the library and digging in a good book or article.Yes, I`m aware of this and I totally agree with you! Luckely I`ve enough books here to use for my report, and everything I wrote in my report has been based on one of those books (especially: Roman legionary 58BC - 69AD by Ross Cowan). But sometimes it`s clever if somebody guids you a little bit
. Now I know that it is not clever to make an apart section about every type of spear. I have made a section called "hasta" since this is in my opinion the best name for a common thrusting spear. In this section I can enumerate all other names for spears and add that the Romans didn`t use those names precisely.
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school report - louisxyz - 02-01-2011
basing this purely on my knowledge of latin and not military history, i believe hasta to be the latin word GENERALLY for a NON-thrown spear, whereas telum was the word for any missile weapon, but more generally javelins, of which pila were a specific roman type. As for a lancea i'm certain that was also a purely thrusting spear, but i think this word is primarily used for a cavalry spear (hence the the medieval lance, also a cavalry term), and my guess would be that the spears of auxiliaries would he known as hastae. the contus is beyond my era but i think it is a double tipped cavalry spear used by kataphractoi in the late empire. this is mostly drawn from reading Caesar in latin, in which lancea is very rare (i believe it is a later word) but hasta and telum are ubiquitous.
NB pila would never be used for thrusting due to thier soft tips
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Matthew Amt - 02-01-2011
Yet Caesar himself says that his troops used pila for thrusting at cavalry, doesn't he? (Siege of Alesia.) The points are not soft, merely thin enough to tend to bend when they hit something. And they are not always that thin, either!
Vale,
Matthew
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school report - Robert Vermaat - 02-01-2011
Quote:NB pila would never be used for thrusting due to thier soft tipsPila tips are never soft.
there has been discussion about the iron shanks being soft or not, but a lot of that is due to mistranslating some passages in Arrian, who is being vague about the matter.
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school report - Latinitas - 02-06-2011
In my report I`ve said about the pilium that it`s often said that its metal shaft bends by the impact, but that there is no evidence. I have placed the text fragment about the hasta in the "other equipment" section, since there is not enough information at the internet to write a whole section on it.
Now I`m making a section on the shield. I know that the shield, that was used by the Roman legionaries, was called the "scutum". Does anyone know the name of the shield that has been used by the Roman and barbarian cavalry, auxiliary and the under officers (like the signifer)? According to wikipedia all of these soldiers used the "parma". Is this correct?
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Matthew Amt - 02-06-2011
Quote:In my report I`ve said about the pilium that it`s often said that its metal shaft bends by the impact, but that there is no evidence.
Oh, there is evidence! There is at least one Roman writer who refers to pilum heads bending, and bent pilum heads have been excavated (though of course we don't know if those were bent in battle or what).
Quote:Now I`m making a section on the shield. I know that the shield, that was used by the Roman legionaries, was called the "scutum". Does anyone know the name of the shield that has been used by the Roman and barbarian cavalry, auxiliary and the under officers (like the signifer)? According to wikipedia all of these soldiers used the "parma". Is this correct?
Strictly speaking, "scutum" is simply Latin for "shield", I believe. We tend to use that strictly for a legionary's curved shield, while the oval used by auxiliaries we call the clipeus. Parma is used to refer to a smaller round shield used by standard bearers, though I believe it was also carried by early cavalry. Oh, and maybe velites? Though all 3 of those could be different shields, just lumped under "parma" cuz they're round.
Vale,
Matthew
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school rep - Dan Howard - 02-06-2011
Quote: Oh, there is evidence! There is at least one Roman writer who refers to pilum heads bending, and bent pilum heads have been excavated (though of course we don't know if those were bent in battle or what).I don't have a cite but I sure there is an account where a legionary is said to have parried so much with his pilum that it resembled a strigil. The one passage is evidence both for bendy pilums and for them being used in melee combat.
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school report - Paullus Scipio - 02-06-2011
Latinitas wrote:-
Quote:"One of those are: hasta, lancea and contus. What is the difference between those spears? I believe that the hasta was used by the soldiers of the republic (and therefore not interesting for me since I discribe the army from 30BC - 100AD). The lancea was used by the auxillary and the contus by the cavalry. Is this thesis correct, or were all thrusting spears the same?"Robert wrote:-
Quote:"First of all, NEVER use a forum (not even RAT) as an opinion on which you can base a school report. "
....not least because you will find variations in opinion, and even opinions which contradict one another, as you probably begin to suspect from this thread!:wink:
However, that is not to say that valuable information cannot be learned, or useful hints as to where to obtain information cannot be found on Forums such as this.
I'm going to throw in my 'two cents worth' which may clarify some things, and then again may cloud other issues!
Firstly, to add to the definitions already mentioned:-
'Hasta' probably began as the word for a purely thrusting spear, similar to the Greek 'doru' used by Hoplites, around 7-9 ft(2.1- 2.7 m long)in the days of the early Republic. By the time you are interested in, the word had become a generic one for 'spear', but could also be used specifically in its original sense.
'lanchea' is the latinised form ( in all likelihood) of the Greek 'longche' and refers to the all-round spear, roughly 5-7 ft (1.5-2.1 m)long which could be used for either throwing or retained in the hand for thrusting. They were often carried in pairs, like the hunting spears they closely resembled, but rarely had 'amentum/throwing thongs' attached as they were considered a bit heavy for using with an amentum, which were far more common on javelins, judging by the extant iconography.
'contus' has caused considerable confusion down the years, and I believe the Greek word 'Kontos' had two meanings, and two different derivations. The first is fairly straight-forward. The word means a stout pole in Greek, or roughly a bargepole. It came to be a nickname for the thick-shafted 12 ft(3.6 m) two-handed lance/spear used by SOME Roman cavalry from the reign of Hadrian ( reigned 117-138 AD).
The second meaning is, I believe, though others do not - Robert and I debated this at length - a 'thrown weapon' and derives from the Greek 'Akontis' - a verb meaning 'thrown or hurled' and secondarily 'strikes or hits'. It can thus be a Greek word to mean the 'pilum' of the Roman Legions. Your Latin dictionary is probably referring to this usage ( e.g. Vegetius mentioned the 'kontos' by referring to enemy infantry as ‘contati’, as well as the ‘contus’ being used as a throwing weapon in a siege (Veg. III.6, IV.17).
Latinitas wrote:
Quote:"In my report I`ve said about the pilium that it`s often said that its metal shaft bends by the impact, but that there is no evidence."
That is very perspicacious of you ! Here I am going to agree with you, and disagree with Matthew Amt about bending on impact......mainly because in the next issue of 'Ancient Warfare' magazine, I have written an article mainly about the pilum in the age of Marius, but in it point out that the ancient texts refer to pila bending on attempts to extract them ( not on impact), and that modern tests by Peter Connolly show that even the thinnest pila do not bend on impact.....in other words, pila were NOT designed to bend, even if sometimes they did..... and Matt is quite right that pila shanks were not particularly thin ( measurements referred to in the article).
I also give a metallurgical analysis of pila shanks that shows they were 'mild steel' not 'iron', and that they were most assuredly not 'soft', which may be of some interest to Robert, since he is quite right that the tips were harder still than the shanks.
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school report - Spurius Papirius Cursor - 02-06-2011
Quote:In my report I`ve said about the pilium that it`s often said that its metal shaft bends by the impact, but that there is no evidence.
I read somewhere that Marius (as in Marius and Sulla) was credited with tweaking the peg connectors between the iron and wooden parts of the pilum so that the shaft partly broke away on impact. I think I read it in an Adrian Goldsworthy text and that might lead you to a primary source.
(EDIT: Just noticed Paul's post points up the Marius connection also).
Re: Latinitas`s questions topic for his school report - Paullus Scipio - 02-06-2011
By an odd co-incidence, the afore-mentioned article argues that Plutarch's reference to the wooden peg cannot be correct, and is therefore something of a myth !!!:wink: :wink: