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Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 12-21-2010
How do, All- doing research for a short novel and this seemed as good a place as any to start research into things Roman. I am primarily looking to see what units were consigned to Judea during the reign of Herod the Great and what their duties/primary activities turned out to be. Yes, I will be telling the Nativity story and here I am ASSUMING that the Romans even HAD a presence in Bethlehem during that time, as I have only begun my research... please inform me immediatly if this is not the case. I also am looking to expand my personal historical library, and the Roman Empire thus far has been sadly neglected- perhaps some tips as to what volumes your members recommend? I am a student in your competant hands-
Gregory F. (the Old Sgt. ) Howard
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - M. Demetrius - 12-21-2010
Many say Legion X Fretensis was stationed in Syria at that time, not the other 10th, sometimes called "Equestris" until the civil war, and afterward "Gemina". There was a largish auxiliary unit from the XF in Jerusalem and surrounding environs. L XF was one of the legions primarily responsible for the sacking of Jerusalem, and the destruction of the Temple in 70, and the siege of Masada as well.
You can get a partial list of the soldiers available there in Acts 10:1 (a unit identified), and Acts 23:23 (200 soldiers (velites?), 200 spearmen and 70 cavalry detachment--a formidable escort for Paul!). I'm very interested in what you're writing, Sarge. We do theatre on the same topic. Remember, Bethlehem is only 5 miles from Jerusalem, more or less, so whatever soldiers were in the one would likely be in the other from time to time. Maybe there was even a small detachment in some of the villages around the city. Twenty armed Romans would be enough of a presence to prevent much uprising in a small town. Then again, they might just keep things under observation and send in a large force. Hard to know.
PM me if you need any pointers on searching the daunting quantity of topics here. Somewhere in WA, btw, there are Roman reenactors, who would probably be glad to take you on a short tactical, or a hike, or something like that so you can get a first hand feel of the armor and weapons, and you could get some observations of the way things worked, felt, tasted like. In the dirt research is always best.
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 12-21-2010
Demetrius-
the intention is to tell the story from the Roman POV- I am envisioning a tentgroup led by a youngish NCO equivilant that is told to "investigate happenings in Bethlehem, particularly any births that seem to attract attention- there is unrest in Herod's Palace due to certain circumstances of prophecy. There are foreign dignitaries involved, be discrete. Report directly to your Senior Centurion should you find anything,"- the overall initial reaction holds that "Herod the Paranoid" is chasing ghosts again, nobody in the Centuria takes this seriously. The young groupleader, a veteran and a raw recruit find the scene, quite by accident- I have the story pretty well hammered out, but I need to know how they talk to each other, what familiarities they might indulge in, how they might address the Aramaic speaking Carpenter and his Fiancé as well as three foreign ambassadors and a group of illiterate shepherds... all the nuts and bolts of historical trivia that flesh out a story. I have SOME clue about the aforementioned, but nothing solid or extensive.
I guess I need to actually DO a tactical with some reenactors- I am a bit long of tooth to be a grunt, so perhaps I sould be a scribe for somebody important to report back what I see( or some similar useless baggage to a military unit.)-
Erroribus Saipe, Dubeii Nunquam-
the Old Sgt.
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - M. Demetrius - 12-22-2010
Well, the wise men from the east didn't come to the stable, if you keep the reading literal. They found the "young child living in a house" perhaps two years later (hence the slaughter was of boy children 2 years and younger.) We only suppose that the birth was in a stable because Mary put the Child in a manger. It could just as well been on the back porch of the inn, and the straw-holder was simply convenient.
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Epictetus - 12-22-2010
Quote:I also am looking to expand my personal historical library, and the Roman Empire thus far has been sadly neglected- perhaps some tips as to what volumes your members recommend?
Maybe you would be interested in Josephus? His Jewish War and Antiquities of the Jews might have some interesting tidbits about the history and culture of the area you could use in your story.
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 12-27-2010
JOSEPHUS!?! Of Course! ... should be the required primer for the area/timeline in question. Such as is, I realise that there is great controversy regarding whether some of his work is ... edited... over the years...? All with a grain of salt- Demetrius, what source are you quoting regarding the Magi approaching a two year old child living in a house? First I've heard of it, not that I disbelive it. I was sufficiantly astounded when I learned how shepherds only watch over their flocks at night during lambing season, meaning that the Christ was born in Spring, not Winter. I might go literal with it if I can make it work... as I think of it, there is a bit of sense to what you say... but I might also go with the traditional storyline . The use of a manger for a crib? Very common, I would say- a remarkably sensible solution under the circumstances- certainly wasn't the first time this had been done. Thing is, I DO want the patrol to encounter Shepherds at a stable and make commentary- could be that the birth occured at a stable, then they moved to a house as Joseph found work? There's also the thorny issue that there are NO Roman records of a census at this time or in this vicinity- and correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Romans document EVERYTHING? Perhaps there is another explanation that I am unaware of...
ALSO- I cannot quite remember my source on this but somehow I have the impression that assignment to Judea at this time was because you really torqued off somebody important but not enough to get you killed. The Hebrews were a difficult people to govern and often enough NOTHING the Roman authorities tried to do went over well- at least that's how I envision it. Any thoughts there?
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - M. Demetrius - 12-27-2010
Quote:Demetrius, what source are you quoting regarding the Magi approaching a two year old child living in a house?Matthew 2:7-18 is the source doc. Maybe Herod was just making sure, by way of killing all the male children two years and younger. Herod had talked to the Magi, and would have determined the approximate age from the conversation. It clearly says "child" and "house", not "infant" and "stable".
The shepherds came to the birthing place, and traditionally, this was a stable, with oxen, donkeys and sheep. (Heck, every Nativity Scene proves that, right?) But the Bible only says Mary put Him in a manger because there was no room at the inn; it doesn't really say where, and mentions no animals at all. It could just as easily have been any sheltered place: a lean-to next to a building, under a porch, in someone's back yard, who can say? From the Bible only, there's not much information given about the place.
Lots of things we wish were clearly recorded in Roman records are not. Like what color the tunics soldiers wore, whether auxilia wore segmentata, what color were centurions crests, did Optios wear crests at all, and hundreds more. The local people apparently either didn't keep that kind of record, or if they did, perhaps they were stored in the more secular part of the Temple, which was destroyed and burned in 70. When the Romans left the area, it could be that the records were lost. Tons of papyrus never made it to our century from theirs, right?
It's plausible that a patrol of Romans came in contact with the shepherds, as you say you want to put in your story. It would have been unusual for people to be moving about at night, and it's likely a group of men moving quickly from one place to another is just the kind of thing that would attract the attention of guards. With all the folks coming into small towns for the census, it makes sense that there could be guards on duty.
I've heard the same thing about Christmas not being in December--that date was assigned much later, and shepherds would not be "abiding with their flocks in the fields" when all the grass was dead, and the weather was cold. The weather around Central Texas is fairly close to Israel's climate, except we get a lot hotter, not having the Mediterranean breezes to moderate summer heat. Right now, it's 27F, -3C outside. Not the best camping weather. Spring makes more sense, as the grass would be green and moist, lambs would be in need of a little extra protection from predators, so the shepherds would be keeping watch, and my guess is that it would have been early to mid Spring, perhaps around Passover or First Fruits. Good symbology either way, yes?
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 12-27-2010
CHOICE!!! NOW I'm getting jazzed! Yes, a patrol catches the shepherds and is led to the scene... or they encounter the same as they find the stable (likely a cave in Belthlehem as wood was a premium material and sandstone abbutments littered the area)- now I've got plenty to work with! I am also told that LX Fretensis had a LARGE number of Assyrians in it who were going for Roman Citizenship- can you confirm/deny? ALSO- Roman Names- I see Valerius Severus Caelinus Blandius as a name (for instance- yes, I went to a Roman name generator for this one)- Which of this pile is the family title, which is this fellow's personal monikker, how would I address him if I were a long-time friend vs a complete stranger? I can only assume the additional tags are nods to dead family/variouse gods/close ties in a fashion (vaguely) similar to Irish Catholics? I can just see it now," Well, my name is Secudes Marcius Iannavius Valentinus... but you can call me 'Bubba'...". Ancient Syrian name generators are not as popular for some reason... but I found a few sources to work with there as well. Translations of personal letters from 750 BC to 12 AD. Interesting stuff, they were an ornery pack of rascals from what I read. BTW, thank you for the help you've given me so far- the internet has got to be the finest research tool only because it brings the right minds together.
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 12-27-2010
... and yes, I have often wondered about the juxtiposition of Christ's birth with passover once I learned of the actual timing..
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - M. Demetrius - 12-27-2010
this will give a good idea of names and how they're actually derived. 4 names would not be common. For Romans, three would be standard for males, for foreign soldiers, they more likely had a Latinized version of their own name.
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/nomina.html
And there are two reenactor legions in the country that I know of, one here in Texas, the other in California. Some of the information you're after might be on one or both sites. PM for email addresses of the leaders. Don't trust Wikipedia, or Caesar's Legion (as that author blends the two Tenth Legions into one)
http://www.legionten.org/
http://home.surewest.net/fifi/index9.htm
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 12-31-2010
Just finished the second draft of chapter one- seven Pages. Likely five chapters- I suspect the whole thing will be a short story, rather like Dicken's "Christmas Carol"-prolly flesh out to 45-50 pages. Having a good time with it, will probably wind up with a full page of referances and bibliographies. There were a LOT of interesting things going on in that corner of the world back then, eh?
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - M. Demetrius - 12-31-2010
Add in some local customs, preparations for the Feast--depending on which season you set the story ins, and/or local feelings of * ? * toward the Roman occupation. Maybe a little about the troubles in the town which is filled with strangers, and supply of bread, and so forth. That part alone must have been a rough go for the bakers, etc.
Just random thoughts. Write it how you feel it.
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 12-31-2010
Good thoughts- but the first chapter happens all at night with the partrol chasing down a group breaking curfew... I MIGHT have them following the stench of dead sheep, hmmm- they've been " ...a full moon in the field with no more water than we can carry in our skins, and there have been many difficult lambings and more than a few losses," I might use those thoughts (customs, bread etc.) for the next chapter as the narrative catches the reader up to the current event- we shall see. My favorite quote of the story so far is the final line- "WHAT in the name of the pedulouse breasts of Ishtar are you TALKING about?!?" ...
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - M. Demetrius - 01-01-2011
Pendulous, right? Graaak! Editors and proofreaders abound just when you least expect them. Heh. :lol: :roll: Good line!
Re: Rank beginner hails from Eastern Washington State- - Sgt Howard - 01-13-2011
I have encountered a webcomix - SPQR Blues- the main character introduces himself as "Marcus Antonius Felix" - dialogue proves that his friends call him 'Felix" while others refer to him as an "Antonius". Most aspects of this comix are pretty accurate... at least to my untrained eye... but as an example- My full name is Gregory Francis Howard- would I introduce myself as "Francis Howard Gregory" in accordance to Roman ettiquette? Or perhaps I should stick to "Gluteus Maximus", "Nefarius Purpose" and "Dubiouse Status" as I read in Asterix comix?- no, I do know better... just had to put that in...
ALSO- how long would a foreign Hastati serve before he became a citizen? And would he change his name to something Roman at that time or before? Would/could he change it at all? I am pushing the carrear of a single assyrian soldier in Legio X Fetensis I might have to broaden my scope considerably- now instead of just the nativity being told, I am doing what amounts to a "Gospel of the Legio" as the whole story is filtering through the ranks of this army of occupation.