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+--- Thread: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. (/showthread.php?tid=17961)
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Robert Vermaat - 12-23-2010
Quote:The draco appears to have been adopted from the Sarmatians and other related Iranian peoples.Careful what you write! Every two months or so I receive an email from yet another Rumanian who berates me, telling me that 'of course' the draco was originally Dacian.
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Urselius - 12-23-2010
Quote:Urselius:2onmf4sy Wrote:The draco appears to have been adopted from the Sarmatians and other related Iranian peoples.Careful what you write! Every two months or so I receive an email from yet another Rumanian who berates me, telling me that 'of course' the draco was originally Dacian.
Ahh! Sticking a windsock on a pole - wars have started for less.
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - markhebb - 12-23-2010
Quote:Ok, what we have is basically Vegetius telling us that every Roman unit, be it a legion or auxilia unit, had a Draco standard. The purpose of this standard is unclear, other than it had some sort of signalling purpose, which may well have been to signal the location of the units overall commander within the unit. This indeed would have lead to what you described as a 'wood of dracones', but not a forest as it would have been limited to one per unit.
The colour of the Draco itself appears to be purple or a similar colour and there is no evidence at present of them being of any other colour. This is derived not only from Ammianus but from several other sources that have been quoted here and elsewhere.
Unless some other evidence from the ancient sources comes to light, this is as good as any theory proposed about the purpose of the Draco standard, which of course upto now there appears to have been no theory at all!!!
What about the Ars tactica -Arr 35.1-6 - it talks of different coloured dracos.....
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Vindex - 12-23-2010
Quote:What about the Ars tactica -Arr 35.1-6 - it talks of different coloured dracos.....
One of the many reasons why I wanted the Greek text of Ars Tactica (which Macedon VERY kindly posted on the thread of that name if anyone else wants to check the translation!).
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - markhebb - 12-24-2010
Quote:markhebb:1a40mbxk Wrote:What about the Ars tactica -Arr 35.1-6 - it talks of different coloured dracos.....
One of the many reasons why I wanted the Greek text of Ars Tactica (which Macedon VERY kindly posted on the thread of that name if anyone else wants to check the translation!).
Have I mis-translated Vindex? - I had a look at the Greek and that's what i came up with (though admittedly my Latin is much stronger than my Greek so i could have made a mistake)...
here is the relevant section
?????? ??? ?? ???????? ?????? ?? ?? ??????????????
?????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????-
???? ????????, ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ???-
??????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ???’ ?? ??? ???????? ??? @1
(2.) ???????? ?????????. ???????? ?? ????????????? ??????-
??????, ?? ???? ????????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????-
????, ??? ???????????? ?? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????-
(3.) ???? ??? ??????. ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???-
??? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????????????. ???-
?????? ?? ????????? ?? ????? ??????????, ??? ?? ??-
????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????????
(4.) ??????, ?? ?????????? ???? ?? ??????????. ??? ?? ??-
??????? ????? ??????????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????
? ???? ?? ????? ???????????? ?? ?? ???? ????????????,
??????????? ?? ?????????? ???????????, <??>?? ??
??????? ???? ??????? ??????????, ??? ?? ??? ??????????? (5)
???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????????.
(5.) ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ? ?????-
??? ???????, ???? ??? ?? ????????? ??? ????????? ???
?? ?? ????????? ???????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????????.
(6.) ?? ??? ??? ???????? ????, ?? ????????????? ??? ?????-
???? ?? ??? ??????????, ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????
? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ???????? ???????????, ??
?? ?????? ????? ???? ??????????? ??? ?? ??????? ??
(7.) ?????? ??????? ??????. ??? ????? ???????? ??? ?? ???-
???????, ?????????? ?? ?? ??????? ?????????, ??????????
?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????????? ?????????? ?????????? @1
???? ??? ?????? ??????????. ?????????? ?? ??????? ??-
???? <?> ????? ???? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??? ??- (5)
??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??????
?????????? ??? ?????.
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Vindex - 12-24-2010
No Mark, I don't think you have mistranslated it at all TBH but I do like to make doubly sure that the translator hasn't taken the easy way out and not looked at the semantics of the words or those associated with it. I'm pretty sad really...I can spend hours re-translating pieces of text, particularly when I am desperate for the ancient sources to support my arguments! LOL :wink:
It doesn't always throw up new ideas but it has helped me in the past.
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - ValentinianVictrix - 12-24-2010
Any chance of putting an English translation for the greek passage here for us poor peasants who know no Greek please?
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - markhebb - 12-24-2010
Quote:No Mark, I don't think you have mistranslated it at all TBH but I do like to make doubly sure that the translator hasn't taken the easy way out and not looked at the semantics of the words or those associated with it. I'm pretty sad really...I can spend hours re-translating pieces of text, particularly when I am desperate for the ancient sources to support my arguments! LOL :wink:
It doesn't always throw up new ideas but it has helped me in the past.
so you would agree with the 'multi-coloured' (or something similar) in reference to the dracone fabric?
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Vindex - 12-24-2010
Quote:Any chance of putting an English translation for the greek passage here for us poor peasants who know no Greek please?
working on it...or my version anyway
shock: ....I haven't unpacked any of my books yet. Only been here since February :roll: but that does mean that the pile of books I keep stepping over are all ones I have bought this year...New Year resolution for 2011...NO MORE BOOKS!!!
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - ValentinianVictrix - 12-24-2010
Quote:ValentinianVictrix:1grw4dmp Wrote:Any chance of putting an English translation for the greek passage here for us poor peasants who know no Greek please?
working on it...or my version anyway
I know the feeling, it's becoming difficult to hide the new ones from 'She who must be obeyed'!!!
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Vindex - 12-24-2010
Quote:so you would agree with the 'multi-coloured' (or something similar) in reference to the dracone fabric?
I'll get back to you...something about it being Christmas Eve and no presents wrapped...far less interesting than this but don't want a domestic just yet!!
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - D B Campbell - 12-24-2010
I don't want to spoil your fun, Moi. But here's a wee taster:
Quote:???????? ?? ????????????? ??????-They charge, distinguished (i.e., identified) by signs (i.e., banners), not only Roman ones but also Scythian ones, so that their riding becomes more colourful and, at the same time, more frightening.
??????, ?? ???? ????????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????-
????, ??? ???????????? ?? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????-
???? ??? ??????.
Quote:?? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???-The Scythian banners are serpents hanging down from poles of the appropriate length. They are made of dyed remnants (i.e. strips of cloth) sewn together, their heads and entire body right down to their tails resembling snakes, in order to appear most fearful.
??? ?? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????????????. ???-
?????? ?? ????????? ?? ????? ??????????, ??? ?? ??-
????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????????
??????, ?? ?????????? ???? ?? ??????????.
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Ron Andrea - 12-24-2010
Great quotes. Thank you.
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - Vindex - 12-24-2010
Bah Humbug!! :lol:
Actually...that's a darned good translation in my book becasue it is the RIDING that is colourful not the banners
The strips of cloth also suggest to me something like a harlequin effect on the tail...or a Joseph Coat for that matter... so they could have been of any colour :lol: so yes Mark, multi coloured.
Re: The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. - D B Campbell - 12-24-2010
Quote:Actually...that's a darned good translation ...Well, thank you. 8)