Iggulden\'s Emperor - Printable Version

Iggulden\'s Emperor - Printable Version

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Iggulden\'s Emperor - Muzzaguchi - 01-08-2003

Hi 
 
Has anyone read Conn Iggulden's Emperor The Gates of Rome? As far as I can tell it has just been released. Tell's the story of Julius Caesar (again) 
 
Cheers 
 
Murray It is an unscrupulous intellect that does not pay Antiquity its due reverence - Erasmus of Rotterdam 
 
'Modern history, like a deaf man, answers questions no one asks' - Tolstoy War and Peace Ep. ii.1

KEEP AWAY FROM IT - Anonymous - 01-29-2003

See other thread.

The Gates of Rome - Anonymous - 03-17-2003

Keep away from it? I'd be interested in knowing why. As far as I'm concerned it's a good story - the sort of book I enjoy reading myself. It's not a history textbook and I have made some changes where I thought the plot would suffer. For example, Sulla and Marius invaded the city a number of times, which would make quite dull reading. I condensed it to a single event. No one knows when Marcus Brutus was born, but I chose to ignore the rumour that he was Caesar's son. I'm convinced this has sprung from JC's long affair with Brutus' mother. 
 
I'm sorry you didn't like the book. I've met quite a few who loved it, so it's difficult for me to know what to say to someone who didn't. 
 
Conn Iggulden

The Gates of Rome: I\'m buying it - richsc - 03-18-2003

These threads are too intriguing, so I have to go buy the book myself. Books aren't all that expensive, so this is not a risky investment folks. Not like buying a Depeeka helmet and finding the cheek guards on backwards. And there is always the library! 
 
In our reenactment group, Legio XX, we do some lending, but when I lent out my first edition of Simon Scarrow's first I almost regretted I'd not bought one for lending. Did get it back though. 
 
Richard Campbell, Legio XX

Stay Away.... - Anonymous - 03-25-2003

Hi Iggulden. My problem were the invented scenes, particularly with Sulla, Marius and Caesar towards the end of the book. 
 
We know what actually happened so why invent things? 
 
Another thing was the relationship of the female slave with caesar. We know from other sources what the Roman aristocracy thought of slaves, people like Cato. 
 
Please accept my apologies for any perceived discourtesy. I was very disappointed though. 
 
I tend to have some really well-respected Roman fiction authors like Shipway, Treece, Breem, Fast, and measure all by that standard. 
 
No offence meant though. I did read the whole book at a sitting, and it was only the failures in fact that upset me.

what happened - John Maddox Roberts - 03-25-2003

We really don't know what actually happened, just what a tiny handful of writers whose works have survived said happened. It's always amused me that nobody can give me an explanation of what happened when John Kennedy was assassinated. It happened only forty years ago and I was less than ten miles from the action. There were hundreds of witnesses, it was captured on film, and it was investigated as no other event in all of history. Yet there is no agreement as to what really happened. was there a lone gunman or two or more? Was it a conspiracy, and if so, who conspired. Still a huge mystery. 
And yet, people will tell you with perfect confidence exactly what happened when Caesar was assassinated more than two thousand years ago. There's always room for speculation and, yes, fictionalizing.

Re: what happened - rekirts - 03-26-2003

*sigh* 
That's the sort of thing that can send me into months of writer's block--at least as far as my Roman stuff is concerned--because I know I can't possibly get everything right. It's fiction for heaven's sake. 
 
I would never NOT recommend a book of fiction based on the facts not being quite right. If I like the characters and the book is well written, I am inclined to forgive a little messing with history. When I want the facts I'll look at one of my non-fiction Roman history books. (Even then, the "facts" seem to change with each new discovery.) 
 
Wendy

Sultry young slave girls - Anonymous - 03-26-2003

I do enjoy reading these. I can't tell you how surprised I was to have people actually write thoughtfully. I was expecting the standard internet reply of swearing and querying my sexual preferences. 
 
Max, I can't apologise for the changes in the scenes with Marius and Sulla, as I'm quite proud of them. Don't forget it wasn't all fiction - After Julius was on the losing side of the civil war, Sulla did demand that he put aside his young wife and (alone amongst Sulla's enemies) Julius refused. We may never know why Sulla didn't have him killed, but he is reported to have said to his clerks 'beware of that one, he has two of Marius in him.' Before someone points it out, I wrote that quote from memory, so it may not be perfect. 
 
To some extent, you really couldn't make this up. 
 
I won't rehash the points I've made in another string about the balance between story and history, but I do think it's important to find that balance. Books based in Roman times are not usually set in some alternate universe and should be as accurate as possible. From my own experience reading historical fiction, part of my pleasure is learning a little about the society as well as a rattling good read. The Flashman books are a good case in point, or Wilbur Smith's stories. Oddly, when I noticed Nelson Mandela coming into one of Wilbur Smith's books, my heart sank as I knew he would be constrained. 
 
As a result, I tend to take criticism aimed at my accuracy, or lack of it, quite seriously. My books are not historical textbooks, but I have put a great deal of research into the Republican period and what has been changed has been done deliberately, rather than through ignorance. (I hope - though I wouldn't know if I don't know, if you see what I mean.) 
 
As no-one previously has ever queried the nature of the relationship involving a young slave girl and the two boys, I have to say that I believe certain things will remain constant almost regardless of society and one of those is the fact that boys will find girls attractive, regardless of differing social status. I certainly don't believe they were considered sub-human by most Romans, given that manumission was possible in a number of ways including buying out a slave's contract after a number of years. Midwives, for example, were often 'freedwomen' and I suspect their higher status would have meant that slavery wasn't always birth-to-death misery. In a brutal society, there will have been brutal masters and the concept of owning another human being as property is an ugly one to start with, but I can't see a problem with an attractive young girl catching JC's eye, I really can't. Both during and between his multiple marriages, he did enjoy quite a number of women, after all. 
 
Thanks too, for your comments, John and Wendy. I liked the point about JFK and may use it again, if the subject comes up - if you don't mind. 
 
Conn

Re: Sultry young slave girls - richsc - 03-26-2003

Regarding novels of slave girls and future emperors, remember Lindsey Davis' "Course of Honor". Richard Campbell, Legio XX

accuracy - John Maddox Roberts - 03-26-2003

Conn: 
Feel free to use my JFK metaphor. It's one of my favorites when people tell me they know what happened because they've read all the sources. Anyway, us Flashman fans gotta stick together. Finest historical fiction ever, in my opinion. 
By the way - the Sulla quote: as I recall, he said something like "in him I see many a Marius." Personally, I consider this nonsense, made up later by someone toadying to Caesar. If Sulla had seen so much as one-tenth of a Marius in Caesar, he would have killed him instantly. Remember that Caesar was little more than a boy at the time. I think Sulla just didn't consider him worthy of consideration, even as an enemy.

Possibly, possibly... - Anonymous - 03-27-2003

I know what you mean, John, about Sulla. I want it to be true, but can't know for sure. Still, Sulla didn't punish Julius for refusing to put aside Cornelia, which is odd all by itself. I like to think that Sulla rather enjoyed the young Caesar's arrogance and a life without a decent enemy would be a dull one from Sulla's point of view. After all, he had achieved everything he had ever wanted. I like to think of the vicious, jaded old worshipper of Aphrodite keeping a few enemies warm for his old age. 
 
George Macdonald Fraser mentioned in his autobiography (The Light's on at Signpost) that he never lets editors change a single letter of his manuscripts. Given my own experience where I can't seem to see some of my idiocy until it is pointed out to me, I was surprised by this. Now it so happens I know his editor and I asked if this was true. He said he once suggested to GMF that a punctuation mark be changed on a page quite late into a novel. The grand old man read through the passage and said, 
"I don't think so." 
I do agree - the Flashman novels are a gold standard. I've ordered your new Hannibal book, by the way, John. Be sure that if you have forgotten to put elephants in, I shall write a post asking for more elephants. 
 
Conn

Re: Possibly, possibly... - rekirts - 03-27-2003

"never lets editors change a single letter of his manuscripts" 
 
Must be nice to have that power! I have only had short stories, light verse and one short personal anecdote published, and except for one magazine changing a title, they have all been printed (or broadcast) as submitted--which is, I understand, unusual. 
 
However, I have had various pieces critiqued at various writing workshops and learned a valuable lesson about separating the critique from the critiquer, and the good advice from the bad. At one workshop I thought the facilitator was an arrogant a**hole. He was critiquing part of my Roman novel (years in the making) and he didn't know much about Romans so he made some dumb comments. It took me 2 years to get over my pique and realize that he had also made some excellent suggestions that would improve the story tremendously. Using those suggestions, I rewrote that part of my novel into a much more exciting and interesting episode. 
 
Nowadays it usually only takes me a couple of days to sort out the good advice and put it to use. 
 
By the way, IF I ever finish the novel, there is no way I would let anyone on this site read it--at least not until I was propped up by a multitude of kudos from people who are not so picky. 
 
Wendy Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=rekirts>rekirts</A> at: 3/27/03 5:03:14 pm

fraser - Anonymous - 03-27-2003

I can't help being in awe of Fraser given your anecdote. Awe for the talent, but also the arrogance. I've not yet read a novel that couldn't be improved somewhere along the line. 
Just ordered Emp from Amaz and will hopefully have a read of it before getting back to the writing. Just hope I'm not unduly influenced! 
Best 
Simon

GMF - Anonymous - 03-27-2003

I hope you like it, Simon. I'll have to get one of yours now, despite my oath to stay away from Roman historical fiction until I'd finished my series. It's not so much the danger of plagiarism as the danger of sparking off other ideas. Extra material, I do not need at the moment. Caesar was a busy little devil. I keep thinking of things I'd like to add in, like Wayland's Smithy, the seven (?) thousand year old tomb in England. Can I add a scene where he visits it? Or the Indus Valley civilization. Would Cleopatra have known about them - about Buddha? Did the ancient Egyptians have archeologists who studied even more ancient civilizations? What wonders were in the library at Alexandria that Julius accidentally burned - 400,000 papyrus scrolls! 
 
As for GMF, I think it's worth remembering he was already long established as a journalist and writer of screenplays - he did one of the Superman movies and the Musketeer one with Oliver Reed, for example. Being his own copy editor is still a hell of a feat, but after the experience of papers and Hollywood, I suppose he had the necessary discipline. 
 
Conn

library fire - John Maddox Roberts - 03-27-2003

Conn, you should check into some of the latest scholarship concerning the fire. It is not mentioned until more than 100 years after Caesar's death, and surely his enemies would have made a major deal of it if he had even inadvertantly burned the great library. The late source merely states that "x thousand (I forget the figure) books burned.) Many modern scholars think this means that books stored in warehouses near the burning fleet caught fire. Alexandria was the publishing center of the ancient world, shipping books copied in the Museum all over the Mediterranean. UNlike rome, Alexandria was a nearly fireproof city, and in the house fighting that took place there soldiers couldn't set buildings on fire even when they tried to, so the story of the great fire at the library is probably incorrect.