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+--- Thread: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? (/showthread.php?tid=17734)
Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - markusaurelius - 10-23-2010
I'm just wondering if anyone knows of where you can find a good Late Roman Spatha replica (around 400AD). Or even one that has a good "base" blade from which the scabbard or handle can be modified upon. Something not overly expensive would be great.
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - Robert Vermaat - 10-25-2010
As the Deepeeka ones are a bit too early for you, I'm afraid that there are no good replicas c. 400 for sale. Of course, there are many artisans (here on this forum) who could make one.
If you have a good design, could you share it? I'm planning to replace my overweight and 3rd-c. Cologne spatha with a better one, but I need some ideas.. 8)
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - John Conyard - 10-25-2010
Hi Markus,
I've just replied to your enquiry in this mornings crop of emails from the Comitatus site
But just in case,
I suspect you could use the blade from:
http://www.battleorders.co.uk/viking/s5 ... sword.html
build a new handle, and strip down the scabbard and re-build it.
There will be American sellers who will stock this weapon. I have not even handled this sword but it seems a reasonable start.
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - markusaurelius - 10-25-2010
Thanks John. Got your email as well. I will have a look into it. I'll share any design thoughts as well once I get one. 8)
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - Robert - 10-25-2010
Salvete omnes.
I just checked Miks on this type of blade. It would seem the Illerup-Wyhl spatha is the thing to go for. Now, these blades are about 80 cm in length. The Wyhl has a nice profile with nearly straight sides running down to a rounded point. There are four cross sections to choise from. The Viking sword does not really come near, remember, that is 400 years later. There is some research needed on the type of handle you would want to put on it, one thing is for sure, you can't use the bone fingergrip handle commonly seen, a flattened oval shaped bone grip would be more approriate and you are way past the ringpommels as well. The parryplate near the blade would be an elongated trapezium, extending well beyond the blade, as would the buttcap, the bone handle would have a flat appearance compared to earlier spatha grips. The scabbard is also very different from ones commonly seen, no big round chapes anymore.
I suggest you have this done by an artisan, I very much doubt these will be made correctly by any Indian, Chinese, Pakistani or what have you. The blade itself would be the least of your worries, by the way! Any competent smith could make these either by forging or even stockremoval (but then you do not need a blacksmith for the later). The handle and the scabbard are the real pain to properly research and to put together a good "package". Plates 142 and 147 of Miks shows some good examples found with their scabbards, just to give you good idea.
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - John Conyard - 10-25-2010
Hmmmm. We find doing the handle and the scabbard the easy bit. A good quality blade that is not going to break is the hard bit.
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - Robert - 10-25-2010
Hi John,
A blade that breaks would have to have a serious flaw. This may be caused by heat stress during forging and cooling. When cooling a blade, which is the last thing you do the regain the hardeness of the steel, you want a big container to plunge the hot blade into all at once. Now, the iron/steel around at that time whas not very hard to begin with, having a limited carbon content, so do not ask for miracles when quenching the piece, as it will not become any harder when cooling it in water or oil. Oil allows for a more slow cooling, but it really smokes a lot and the overall effect is not worth the billowing clouds. There is some absorpion of carbon during the forging proces, but that is only near the surface of the blade. The edges are hard-packed by forging, driving the iron molecules closed together, but that is about it. Blades can break away from the handle if a (too) thin rat tail type tang is forged, causing a lot of stress to the joining point. When one forges a blade from a single strip of low carbon iron/steel with a solid tang, it may bend, but should not break. Low carbon steel does not become brittle enough to break.
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - markusaurelius - 10-25-2010
To be honest I just wanted a cheap blade that has the proper look to it, after which I would craft either myself of through some great local resources the scabbard and handle after a bunch of research. Smithing a blade from scratch is pricey! I'm not looking for anything combat ready, but simply a great accurate display piece. So an indian blade shaped properly etc. would do me fine. Any new suggestions then on the blade type?
I really have to get Miks book....
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - Robert - 10-25-2010
Quite frankly, smithing a blade from scratch in a low to medium carbon steel is NOT very pricey. OK, yes, perhaps compared to Indian standards, but then they rarely make unica and do not do any research. The pricey part is hours that go into the grinding of it, but if you opt for one of the less complicated cross sections, there are two to chose from, even that is not overly pricey. Now, should you want a blade with guttering, then thing start to move up. I just had another look, but a lot seem to have a rather simple rounded cross section or a basicly flat with pronounced edges cross section. Both are relatively easy to make if one starts off with a bar/strip of iron close to about the right width and the final thickness wanted. The distortion of the blade is not that great when working the edge on both sides, making it not a great feat of smithing to keep the blade straight. I would have to look at the distal taper (which in fact shifts the balance of the blad towards the handle, most Indian replica's lack distal taper, making them heavy in the hand as the weight is too far towards the point), but even then. I guess Matt (a fellow Canadian) would be glad to make such a blade, I could as well, come to think of it. Brennius would do a great job, too, but he works with stock removal and I like a hard packed edge. But then, hey, you are not going after the barbarian hordes anyway, so his blades work fine, too. He probably uses beter steel, so the edge would be just as hard as mine
.
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - John Conyard - 10-25-2010
Robert gives a nice summary. We use pattern welded swords produced by a member, and Albion blades seem fine. Outside that you have to look for something that is large enough and strong enough to be fit for purpose. But there are many pretty "wall hangers" that look right. I have only made only blade using stock removal, and that was one too many! But making knives is fun.
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - Robert - 10-25-2010
Cross section shows a thickness of about 5 to 6 mm and a width of about 5 cm, with distal taper (less thickness) towards the point. 6 mm thickness on the first half of the blade up from the handle at that width makes for a nice sturdy blade to swing!
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - markusaurelius - 10-25-2010
Thanks Robert. Yes Matt does a great job on his work, including blades. I'll have to drop him another line to see what the general costs would be. I doubt it would beat 75 pounds though.....
Re: Where to find Late Roman Spatha? - Robert - 10-25-2010
Matt may surprise you, but you need to be specific in what you want. I can send Matt the Miks data if you decide to go ahead with him, I think he has the book, but this is just in case.