+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? (/showthread.php?tid=17630)
Pages:
1
2
Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Gregory J. Liebau - 10-05-2010
Hey folks,
I'm reading through Victor Davis Hanson's The Soul of Battle and on page 80 I came across a curious reference. In contrasting the Theban hoplites with their Spartan adversaries, he writes "These troops had none of the pretensions of Spartan professionals, whose red cloaks, polished bronze armor, long oily hair, careful drill, wooden dog tags, and slow steady walk to the music of pipes were designed to instill terror and display years of brutal training." This caught my attention immediately because I am entirely unaware of what period reference Hanson may have drawn this detail from. There is no citation on such a random bit of information within the book's note section, since it is admittedly rather trivial from the perspective of the book's aim. Is there anyone here who can direct me to a citation for the use of dog tags, or is this some misrepresentation or outright mistake on Hanson's part? Thank you for your help, cheers!
-Gregory
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - PMBardunias - 10-05-2010
Yes, they were wooden sticks, though off the top of my head I cannot recall the reference. They might have been called Skytales like the sticks used to decode message strips. I think maybe they were broken in half, one half kept with the hoplite, the other kept to refer to, but that may just be me confusing them with the message sticks. Someone will know for sure and have a reference, If not I'll try to find it.
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Dithrambus - 10-05-2010
I have read this as well, wooden sticks were carried because they would not be desirable 'loot', the sticks were allegedly marked and broken in half so the two halves could be matched in case the warrior was so disfigured as to be unrecognizable. I would also like to know the original source for this bit of info, I tried a search and did'nt turn up anything.
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Dithrambus - 10-07-2010
It would seem that there are no classical references for the Spartan 'dog tags'. :?
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - D B Campbell - 10-07-2010
Quote:Is there anyone here who can direct me to a citation for the use of dog tags, or is this some misrepresentation or outright mistake on Hanson's part?Victor Davis Hanson doesn't make mistakes. :wink: The ancient source is Diod. Sic. 8.27.2.
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Dithrambus - 10-07-2010
Quote:Gregory J. Liebau:88k9mn52 Wrote:Is there anyone here who can direct me to a citation for the use of dog tags, or is this some misrepresentation or outright mistake on Hanson's part?Victor Davis Hanson doesn't make mistakes. :wink: The ancient source is Diod. Sic. 8.27.2.
Thank you so much, I was begining to worry.
(Hanson is one of my favorite authors :wink: )
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Gregory J. Liebau - 10-08-2010
Thank you for the reference! I have great confidence in Hanson as a historian, but in some of his descriptions of armament I've noticed he fails to be concise. In the same book he described the unique physical nature of 4th century Boeotian hoplites. He cites their "Boeotian" shields with cut-outs along their sides, which is commonly known as an Archaic shield design that probably only survived only in representation into the late classical era, rather than in actual use. He also notes their open-faced Boeotian helmets, which in all fairness were likely used throughout the Achaean world by the end of the Peloponnesian War. Little details like that made me stop and wonder at this particular statement, which seems to fit well into his typical scheme of trying to differentiate the physical characteristics of hoplites from different areas, when in fact there were probably few things that set individuals out in the crowd based on their appearances beyond the artwork on shields...
I actually have a family connection to the Hanson's, and seeing as he grew up not ten miles from where I live, so I hope to meet him sooner or later. He's got to be one of the most influential comparative historians alive today, and I'd dearly love to pick his brain about some of the fundamentals of hoplite warfare on a psychological level... Of course, I'll be reprimanding him dearly for his mistakes I noted above, though! Ha, yeah, right... :mrgreen:
-Gregory
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-08-2010
Although i agree that few things would differentiate hoplites, the boeotian cap was worn at least in mid 5th century and probably earlier. It didn't have its later 4-3th century design with the characteristic prolonged edges and looked much like the laconian pilos, but Pausanias describes a painting in the Poikile stoa in Athens where the Plataeans were depicted entering the battle of Marathon in Boeotian caps. The painting was done some decades after the battle.
Exciting to have a chance to meet Hanson! Sure his statement about boeotian shields deserves a question :wink: It's only depicted on coins after the early 5th century.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - PMBardunias - 10-08-2010
Quote:He also notes their open-faced Boeotian helmets, which in all fairness were likely used throughout the Achaean world by the end of the Peloponnesian War.
Boeotian hoplites probably wore the pilos more commonly than the boeotian helmet judging from funeral stelai in any case.
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-08-2010
I thought of that too,but there is a considerable time between the two trends. The pilos becomes very popular after the end of fifth century,whereas the Plataeans might have been wearing them in Archaic times,about a century before. At that period we don't see the laconian pilos anywhere.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Gregory J. Liebau - 10-08-2010
My mistake. He certainly did cite Boeotian helmets as his example... But when I mentioned their wide use by the late 5th century I was thinking about Pilos helmets, not the brimmed Boeotian style. :oops:
-Gregory
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Polinik - 12-18-2010
Diod. Sic. is too late for a serious reference that we could call proof.How come he and Plutarch are so easily taken for a word (especially for pre earthquake Spartans most speak of when saying 'Spartans')
Still a possibility though.I personally believe they did wear them, although I would not claim it absolutely since I have no proof...no one does,yet.
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Ghostmojo - 01-24-2011
By the way, if anybody desparately needs a copy and has more money than sense:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spartan-Army-J-F-Lazenby/dp/0856681423/ref=sr_1_94?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295869023&sr=1-94
Unfortunately not new - but used - and clocking in at £300.00 !!!
hock: :evil: Isn't it about time that this book was republished? A nice illustrated version would be a fitting tribute to Lazenby...
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Dithrambus - 01-30-2011
I found another reference to Spartan "dog tags" in V.D. Hanson, The Western Way of War. This one is credited to the 2nd century A.D Macedonian author Polyaenus, but instead of dog tags Polyaenus apparently claimed the Spartans simply wrote their names inside of their shields. Hardly proof and obviously written long after the Spartan heyday, but I thought it still worth mentioning.
Re: Did Spartans Wear Dog Tags? - Ghostmojo - 01-31-2011
There's an interesting aspect to that if you think about it Mark. The old apocryphal story, oft-repeated by TV historians, about the Spartan mother giving her son his shield and saying to him "return with it, or upon it" (taken from the Spartan sayings); we clearly know to be erroneous because Spartan warriors were buried where they fell (and not brought home) as a general rule. Therefore, the saying must be misapplied or just mistaken. But perhaps it meant return carrying your shield personally, or simply as a written memory scratched upon your shield for your family to honourably receive?