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+--- Thread: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets (/showthread.php?tid=17575)
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Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - rocktupac - 09-24-2010
As most of you are aware there are two (that I know of) curious references to linen armor of different "plies". One of them is found in Plutarch's description of Alexander's armor (Life of Alexander 32.8 ) were he is said to have worn "a breastplate of two-ply linen." I have also seen this translated as "doubled," "folded," which is how the Greek word is defined in LSJ, and even "quilted," which is an interpretation of the translator. The other reference is from Cassius Dio (Roman History 78.7.1-2) where Caracalla creates a Macedonian-like phalanx "equipped with the arms that warriors had used in his [i.e., Alexander's] day" and arms the soldiers with "a three-ply linen breastplate."
I attempted to find more of examples llike this but I couldn't come up with any. Unless anyone else knows of other authors talking of 'doubled' (or two- or three-ply) breastplates then these are the only two cases. What do all of you make of these? Have there been any major discussions about the nature of this armor? Is there even enough information to come to a consensus about this armor?
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Peter Raftos - 09-26-2010
Scott,
If you do a search on linothorax and spolas you will find over 60 pages discussing this and other matters pertaining to construction, material and primary references. The discussions have been long and in many cases fruitful. Have a read you may find an answer has already been suggested.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - rocktupac - 09-27-2010
Quote:Scott,
If you do a search on linothorax and spolas you will find over 60 pages discussing this and other matters pertaining to construction, material and primary references. The discussions have been long and in many cases fruitful. Have a read you may find an answer has already been suggested.
Thank you, Peter. However, I have read the discussions and have not found an appropriate answer to my question.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Dan Howard - 09-27-2010
Between the ambiguity of the translations and the lack of supporting evidence the question cannot be answered.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Peter Raftos - 09-27-2010
You have me intrigued. Have you found a greek text on the web? I take it you mean this passage:
“ After sending this message to Parmenio, he put on his helmet, but the rest of his armour he had on as he came from his tent, namely, a vest of Sicilian make girt about him, and over this a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus.”
My plain English translation of "thoraka diploun linoun" is simply thorax of 'doubled /doubled over' linen. There may be a technical meaning for diploun of which I am unaware (ie spinning, weaving or another type of textile manufacturing process) but LSJ is silent on that. Where are the rogue classicists when you need them. I think, barring finding such a special or technical usage in a similar context Dan is correct.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - rocktupac - 09-27-2010
Quote:You have me intrigued. Have you found a greek text on the web? I take it you mean this passage:
“ After sending this message to Parmenio, he put on his helmet, but the rest of his armour he had on as he came from his tent, namely, a vest of Sicilian make girt about him, and over this a breastplate of two-ply linen from the spoils taken at Issus.”
My plain English translation of "thoraka diploun linoun" is simply thorax of 'doubled /doubled over' linen. There may be a technical meaning for diploun of which I am unaware (ie spinning, weaving or another type of textile manufacturing process) but LSJ is silent on that. Where are the rogue classicists when you need them. I think, barring finding such a special or technical usage in a similar context Dan is correct.
Yes, that is the passage I was talking about from Plutarch. Cassius Dio also speaks of mutiple-ply linen corselets in the Macedonian army and these two references caught my attention and, like you, intrigued me. I do not know of any technical meaning (even with having a decent knowledge of spinning flax and weaving linen) in the ancient world. Dan can be somewhat laconic sometimes, but I think he, and yourself, might be correct. This is too bad, I would dearly love to know what these authors meant.
Homer twice uses this word with reference to armor at 4.133 ("she guided an arrow where the golden clasps of the belt were fastened and the corselet overlapped") and 20.414-415 ("even where the golden clasps of the belt were fastened, and the corselet overlapped"); the translator has decided to read this as "overlapped" but, to me, it could easily be something like "where the corselet was doubled" and still make sense. Both instances illustrate heroic and dynamic strikes so it would fit that Homer would think it worth mentioning that the thickest (i.e. doubled) part of the armor were hit.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Dan Howard - 09-27-2010
Quote:Homer twice uses this word with reference to armor at 4.133 ("she guided an arrow where the golden clasps of the belt were fastened and the corselet overlapped") and 20.414-415 ("even where the golden clasps of the belt were fastened, and the corselet overlapped"); the translator has decided to read this as "overlapped" but, to me, it could easily be something like "where the corselet was doubled" and still make sense. Both instances illustrate heroic and dynamic strikes so it would fit that Homer would think it worth mentioning that the thickest (i.e. doubled) part of the armor were hit.This passage from Homer has disturbed me for a while. Keep in mind that this arrrow hit the wearer in the middle of the back. Normally the two-halves of a cuirass overlap at the sides. He might be talking about a mitre plate that overlaps with the cuirass. These passages can tell us a little about how the various items were constructed but I wouldn't take too seriously any of the heroic injuries that are described.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - rocktupac - 09-28-2010
Quote:rocktupac:oc6s73fb Wrote:Homer twice uses this word with reference to armor at 4.133 ("she guided an arrow where the golden clasps of the belt were fastened and the corselet overlapped") and 20.414-415 ("even where the golden clasps of the belt were fastened, and the corselet overlapped"); the translator has decided to read this as "overlapped" but, to me, it could easily be something like "where the corselet was doubled" and still make sense. Both instances illustrate heroic and dynamic strikes so it would fit that Homer would think it worth mentioning that the thickest (i.e. doubled) part of the armor were hit.This passage from Homer has disturbed me for a while. Keep in mind that this arrrow hit the wearer in the middle of the back. Normally the two-halves of a cuirass overlap at the sides. He might be talking about a mitre plate that overlaps with the cuirass. These passages can tell us a little about how the various items were constructed but I wouldn't take too seriously any of the heroic injuries that are described.
Which passage were you referring to (4.133 or 20.414-415?)? I didn't see anything in 4.133 about being hit in the back, and the passage from book 20 is clearly describing an injury to the front (see 20.416) which describes an injury to the navel.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Dan Howard - 09-28-2010
???
Read the passage again.
20.413-416
??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????? ???? ????????
???? ????????????, ??? ???????? ?????
???????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????
??????? ?? ?????? ???' ??????? ?????? ?????,
Lattimore translates it as:
"For as he shot by swift-footed brilliant Achilleus hit him
with a spear thrown in the middle of the back where the clasps of the war belt
were golden and came together at the joining halves of the corselet.
The spearhead held its way straight on and came out by the navel"
The spear (I misremembered it being an arrow) entered the middle of the back and came out of the stomach near the navel. According to this the war belt was clasped in the same spot (middle of the back) and the cuirass had a join in the same position
the ambiguous phrase is ??????? ??????.
diploos means "double"
enteto comes from antomai means "meet" or "encounter" or "come together"
It could mean "where the doubled cuirass came together"
or "where the cuirass halves were joined"
Lattimore chose the latter, which makes the most sense except that the join is in the middle of the back. Personally I wouldn't use the word "overlapped" since that implies more than the passage actually says. If you can't read Greek then get Lattimore's translation. It is the best for this kind of study.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - rocktupac - 09-28-2010
My apologies. I read it too quickly. It was late and I was tired.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Dan Howard - 10-01-2010
It might actually mean the opposite of what people think. Instead of an overlap there may have been a small gap at the join that let the spear tip through more easily than if it hit elsewhere on the cuirass.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Tim Edwards - 10-02-2010
My response to the original suggestion would be that the linen was simply extremely thick.
The linen greave from Dura Europos was circa 5mm thick in a single layer, and I believe is similar to bits from Masada.
Double or triple this thickness and you have what would likely be a very formidable armour.
While the evidence is admittedly meagre, it could support a literal translation.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Dan Howard - 10-02-2010
Makes the most sense. Would have been nice if James described how it was woven. All he said is that it was 0.5 cm of undyed linen and that it had "felted slightly through wear."
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Tim Edwards - 10-02-2010
I'm fairly convinced its weft twined, which allows for a very thick single layer.
Re: Two-Ply and Three-Ply Linen Corselets - Dan Howard - 10-02-2010
James also said that there was no equivalent in the archaeological record. Do you have a cite for the Masada find - or, better yet, a quote of the relevant passage?