+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? (/showthread.php?tid=17571)
How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? - tDub248 - 09-22-2010
Hey guys, I need to learn more about what the egyptian military looked like around say 200-300 BC. Can any one point me in the right direction? My rough understanding is that the upper political figures would have been greek, but how "Egyptian" looking were the actual Egyptians at that point? Would the soldiers still have the white skirts and be bare chested? Thanks,
Re: How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? - MeinPanzer - 09-24-2010
With the exception of the native Egyptians who served during and after Raphia (217 BC), the army was entirely Hellenistic, meaning primarily Greek, but also including variousnon-Greek soldiers from around the Mediterranean (Thracians, Celts, etc.). The barechested, white-skirt-wearing Egyptians had been long gone for centuries already.
Re: How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? - tDub248 - 09-24-2010
cool, thanks, but what would the natives have worn? And where might I find a book or something on this? thanks man,
Re: How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? - MeinPanzer - 09-24-2010
Quote:cool, thanks, but what would the natives have worn? And where might I find a book or something on this? thanks man,
I don't think there's really any evidence testifying to the appearance of Egyptian soldiers during the Hellenistic period. Some people have made reconstructions (notably Duncan Head in his Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars), but they are entirely based on literary descriptions of earlier writers (i.e. Xenophon) and a whole lot of speculation.
Re: How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? - ScipioAsina - 10-15-2010
The native Egyptians who served in the Ptolemaic army and navy were collectively known as the machimoi (???????), or "fighting men"; there were variations, like the machimoi hippeis (cavalry) or naukleros machimoi (associated with the navy).
As far as I know, there isn't much in terms of details when it comes to their equipment. Diodorus mentions that, of the soldier's in Ptolemy I's army, "some were Macedonians and some were mercenaries, but a great number were Egyptians, of whom some carried the missiles and the other baggage but some were armed and serviceable for battle." (19.80) I do not believe it is too far-fetched to suggest that the the Egyptians "armed and serviceable for battle" were given similar equipment as that of Ptolemy's Macedonians.
Egyptians probably made up a large part of Antony's crews at Actium. Plutarch says that "the crews fought with wicker shields and spears and punting-poles and fiery missiles," so presumably the Egyptian marines would also have had this equipment. (Antony 66.2) Or perhaps I'm making some gross assumptions.
There was also a unit of natives called the epilektoi machimoi peri ten aulen (????????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????), which means something along the lines of "elite fighting men of the court." If they were indeed some sort of guards unit (along the lines of the agema), I think they would probably have looked very "Greek" in terms of arms and armaments.
Hope this helps.
Re: How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? - PMBardunias - 10-15-2010
Not that I know first hand mind you, but I understand that the impossible to find in print Montvert publication by Sekunda on Hellenistic Egyptian armies is avilable online in .pdf form if you do some searching...
I have a related question. When did the old warrior castes of Egyptian society described by Herodotus give up their martial status?
Re: How "greek" was Egypt around 200 BC? - ScipioAsina - 10-15-2010
The machimoi were, in fact, the old warrior caste. Prior to the Roman annexation, however, it seems the meaning changed somewhat to denote all soldiers who possessed a certain amount of land, Greeks included. Bevan's House of Ptolemy discusses this far better than I can.
One thing I might add is that Ptolemy IV Philopator evidently organized and equipped a large body of natives in the style of the Macedonian phalanx. This was an emergency measure, and the troops may not have been machimoi.
Sekunda's book doesn't say much at all about the natives. He does include the image of a terracotta warrior from Fayum; "This most interesting terracotta from the Fayoum may give a rough idea of the appearance of an Egyptian native soldier (machimos) in the late Hellenistic period. The coiffure, head shaved but for a child's hair-lock, indicates that the terracotta shows the Graeco-Egyptian deity Harpocrates 'Horus the child', the son of Osiris and Isis, who eventually triumphed over the evil Set (Typhon). He is frequently shown as a child in arms. Crude Graeco-Egyptian terracotta of this type are extremely difficult to date. The shield, a thureos with top and bottom cut off, places the terracotta after the second century BC. A date around the middle of the first century BC might be appropriate." If you ask me, I don't think this is very strong evidence, though I'm not on expert on the subject either.
Hope this helps.