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Mythical creatures and the marmol of Germanicus at Segobriga - recondicom - 08-31-2010
Looking for meanning? Detail of the marmol of Germanicus at Segobriga.
[attachment=0:375c4fs2]<!-- ia0 winged chimeras.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:375c4fs2]
The mind is fed by the flame held by the winged chimeras. The mind is then capable of raising to it’s most powerful rank/function. The qualities of the foxes and wolfs are in the tabs… Apollo, Mercury..
Re: Germanicus. - recondicom - 09-05-2010
Of relevancy.
Whomever attends discussions at the Environmental Design Research Association learns of patterns (surely art) as a cause of behavior over demographics. Heidegger is his book: ‘The origen of the work of art’ assigns a truth to the work.
Heidegger’s theory is a bit more advanced than the anamnesis of Socrates and deals with Alethea (representation of Truth)…In the times of Germanicus left to the Augurs and the winged birds.
I did not read any of Patton’s memoirs… but, I seen the movie. In one scene he tells Bradley that he “remembers”… He was Hannibal… :!:
The Greeks called this phenomena metempsicosis… and so, if this process is true then his statue is a work of art as well…heir to the eagle and his quarters.
Re: Germanicus - Crispvs - 09-07-2010
"winged chimeras" - The creatures depicted are more commonly known in English as 'griffins'.
Crispvs
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 09-08-2010
Quote:"winged chimeras" - The creatures depicted are more commonly known in English as 'griffins'.
Crispvs
Crispvs and so very sharp.
A chimera had the head of a lion, the body of a goat and the tail of a dragon. Griffins had for the most part the head of an eagle or a vulture (perhaps the celtiberan version)… a sign of an earlier royalty/symbol well preserved in the English culture…They relate to Poseidon another symbol carried by the SAX.
Chimeras,griffins,harpies are gorgons…back to stories of Athena… Perhaps part of the education of Augustus and the augurs.
Sal
Re: Germanicus - john m roberts - 09-08-2010
Besides the mythical creature in the tale of Bellerophon, the word "chimera" is often used in English to mean imaginary creatures made up of parts of other creatures i.e. the carved monsters on gothic cathedrals that do not serve to drain water are referred to as chimeras, while the waterspouts are gargoyles.
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 09-08-2010
Quote:Besides the mythical creature in the tale of Bellerophon, the word "chimera" is often used in English to mean imaginary creatures made up of parts of other creatures i.e. the carved monsters on gothic cathedrals that do not serve to drain water are referred to as chimeras, while the waterspouts are gargoyles.
Naturally we are dealing with a 1 century statue. Chimeras like the swift wings of devastation and death carried by Germanicus. As for the original word to describe chimeras I have doubts... but for sure it is not English :lol: . Perhaps an Etruscan word before their migration to Italy. Cherubins… sounds just like it :mrgreen: . Winged Genie the Phoenicians of Tyre placed at the Temple of Solomon …integrated in the Christian Age by St. Theresa of Avila in her visions of the cherubins/angels.
P.
Re: Germanicus - Crispvs - 09-08-2010
John,
Carved monsters etc. on churches and cathedrals are correctly termed 'grotesques'. You are absolutely right though about the use of the word 'chimera' in English to mean an imaginary beast made up of parts of other creatures. Groteque drain spouts are indeed called 'gargoyles' (apparently from the gurgling sound produced during heavy rain).
Sorry if I am dragging your thread a little off topic Recondicom.
Incidently I am not convinced of any link between the word 'cherub' (plural cherubim) and the word 'chimera'. In terms of similarity (and therefore possible relationship) they are no more similar to each other than they are to the word 'chambermaid'.
Also, I still feel that the creatures depicted on the sculpture are griffins rather than chimeras. To my eyes they have lions' bodies and birds' heads and wings, which would make them griffins. Not that that would be at all inappropriate for someone like Germanicus, given his position as the heir to the principate of Augustus (and thus ultimately going back to Venus and therefore in part divine).
Crispvs
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 09-09-2010
Crispvs. Got it off topic.
Chimera/Chimeras
Griffin/Griffins
Cherub/Cherubim
Perhaps another option would be Gryphon/Griffin.
Your vision of lions is a modern one… creatures of imagination. El Greco was a famous painter with such imagination. However, I do agree that lions are more civilized than chimeras... for the most part. I wonder about the original cherubim… the modern version is like children.
Child/childrem
The picture is of one cherub holding the altar where a Bishop is buried.
Incidently. What is that on the head of the chimeras/lions?
Re: Germanicus - Crispvs - 09-10-2010
Firstly regarding the spelling. In English the word 'griffin' can correctly be spelt in a number of ways, including 'griffin', 'griffon' and 'gryffon'.
I still take them to be griffins rather than chimeras on the basis of the fact that they appear to have beaks, which would mean that the heads are intended to be birds' heads. They also appear to have the bodies of lions but with the necks extended to resemble the long necks of some birds, which is a feature normally seen on ancient depictions of griffins. In that light I have been feeling since you first posted the picture up that the things on their heads are probably crest feathers, as seen on a number of other ancient depictions of griffins.
In any case, I thought you were looking for the meaning of the image (pardon me if I mistook your intention). If so, the presence of griffins, as powerful pseudo royal beasts, would be an allusion to power and authority on the part of the wearer of the breastplate. The torch they both hold could mean a number of things. The things which occur to me first are the flame in the temple of Vesta, which might therefore be an allusion to Rome as the sacred home, and the flame in the temple of Jupiter, maintained by the flamen dialis, which would presumably be a reference to Jupiter, although without the presence of an eagle this identification seems less likely than that of Vesta. Then again there may be other significant flames/fires which have not occurred to me.
I hope this helps a bit.
Crispvs
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 09-11-2010
Quote:I hope this helps a bit.Crispvs
Absolutely brilliant Crispvs.
However, there are other sources of images. I’m thinking that… it is the head of a lion and in particular that of Aion/Time… as far as any Royal meaning... It came afterwards with the freiherr and the Church.
As for your input... the altar at Samothrace depicts such griffin; also a Mithraic altar.
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 09-27-2010
The jews of Babylon (some from Russia) carried some traditional imagery uncommon to jewish Talmud. The beast is called ZiZ. Perhaps... Ziz/6/SAX
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 10-12-2010
Higher than the chimeras is the head of Medusa. Winged Minerva’s shield at Ostia also has the head of Medusa on her shield. Perhaps a copy of Athena’s shield. From the head of Medusa sprung Pegasus and Chrysaor… A winged boar… which is also an emblem of the XX Legion raised by Augustus after Actium to battle the Astures. The XX legion was also with Germanicus.[attachment=0:cak6zmvb]<!-- ia0 Medusa Germ.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:cak6zmvb]
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 10-17-2010
The Chimeras are Etruscan furies. Guides to the underworld. The torch reveal the head of Medusa. That’s is Ley (law) to the breakers of the oath. At the Vatican (online source) Etruscan objects show the winged chimeras in a way that is reminiscing of the Isis Temple. Anyway, The snakes seem to be a symbol of damnation and the ankh a symbol of Eternal life.
The Etruscan ankh is the swastica.
Re: Germanicus - Crispvs - 10-18-2010
I was under the impression that Chrysaor was a man with a sword. I don't think I have ever heard of any references to winged boars. Certainly the twentieth legion used a charging boar as its symbol but I have seen rather a lot of their tile stamps with my own eyes and if you can find me one which shows wings I would be extremely interested in seeing it, as it would be unlike any other twentieth legion boar I have ever seen. Also, as I have already stated, the creatures on the breastplate are griffins, not chimeras. Unlike a bird's head, a lion's head does not have a beak and neither does it have crest feathers.
As to the royal associations of the griffin being a later development, I would suggest that the fresco of lines of griffins in the throne room at Knossos would rather suggest that the royal association began earlier rather than later.
Regarding snakes as symbols of damnation, that would go against the normal beliefs of the ancient world which tended to see snakes as symbols of healing and long life.
Crispvs
Re: Germanicus - recondicom - 10-18-2010
Quote:I was under the impression that Chrysaor was a man with a sword. I don't think I have ever heard of any references to winged boars. Certainly the twentieth legion used a charging boar as its symbol but I have seen rather a lot of their tile stamps with my own eyes and if you can find me one which shows wings I would be extremely interested in seeing it, as it would be unlike any other twentieth legion boar I have ever seen. Also, as I have already stated, the creatures on the breastplate are griffins, not chimeras. Unlike a bird's head, a lion's head does not have a beak and neither does it have crest feathers.
As to the royal associations of the griffin being a later development, I would suggest that the fresco of lines of griffins in the throne room at Knossos would rather suggest that the royal association began earlier rather than later.
Regarding snakes as symbols of damnation, that would go against the normal beliefs of the ancient world which tended to see snakes as symbols of healing and long life.
Crispvs
Lex/law is Etruscan language. It comes from the root leo as leon and K-sor do. And so, he is also depicted with the head of a lion and wings. Just like the German flag, it depends on how angry… black: very angry… red: less angry. No feathers. It is a wig of serpents. There are other depictions of winged chimeras. I concede that it is hard to see any wings in the surviving XX Legion symbols in the marranos. Perhaps the most is a crest …they could be wings. Yes I agree with the royal implications but they are in Knossos and so are the scarabs and they were not standard issue of the Pope (maybe they were). Cobras, used in Egypt, are not as elegant as the poisons of the Romans; a Roman/Judeo view of Paradise. You are referring to the caduceus… Oath “do no harm”. Perhaps you mean wisdom and knowledge… Chinese like the Qi or the ourobouros of Alexandria... competing with the Brahman of the Stoics.