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+--- Thread: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! (/showthread.php?tid=17434)
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Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - hoplite14gr - 08-30-2010
I was in the Antikenssammelungen last Friday.
I do not manage to find out about this relief.
Has any body seen it?
The Amazon shield is very interesting.
Kind regards
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - Astiryu1 - 08-30-2010
That is interesting. Good find! With the curved edge it looks kind of like a lengthened "pelta" to me. Anyone ever find a shield resembling this? Is she holding a spear?
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - Dithrambus - 08-30-2010
Good find Stephanos, It does look much like a medieval 'heater' shield, not sure that I've ever seen that particular shape in an ancient (bc) context, how old is the sculpture? If the sculpture predates the medieval period, then I have further questions.
Mark H.
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - Paullus Scipio - 08-30-2010
I strongly suspect the sculptor has used foreshortening and that the normal 'pelta' is being shown.....
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - MeinPanzer - 08-31-2010
It's not foreshortened or anything, that's just the way that arists rendered Amazonian peltae in a lot of cases during the Hellenistic period. Since the original crescent peltae fell out of use and basically became fantasy armour, the artist clearly distorted the original design and played with it. Amazonian peltae in Hellenistic art were roughly half-oval in shape, with the upper end terminating in either two points (as on the relief in the OP), or three points, like this example:
http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/pelte1.jpg
Note that in this case the artist has also assimilated the transverse spine of the thyreos onto the pelte.
Now if you want to see something that will really blow your mind, look at the fallen shield on this late 4th c. BC painted Bosporan pelike which was on display in the Pergamon museum when I was there a few years ago:
http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/pelike.jpg
Not only is it roughly shaped like a medieval shield, but it features a Templar cross in exactly the right colour scheme - red on white! I'd never seen this design used in Greek art before seeing this pelike.
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - Astiryu1 - 08-31-2010
Quote:Now if you want to see something that will really blow your mind, look at the fallen shield on this late 4th c. BC painted Bosporan pelike which was on display in the Pergamon museum when I was there a few years ago:
http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/pelike.jpg
Not only is it roughly shaped like a medieval shield, but it features a Templar cross in exactly the right colour scheme - red on white! I'd never seen this design used in Greek art before seeing this pelike.
hock: When is that vase dated to?
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - MeinPanzer - 08-31-2010
Quote:
Late 4th c. BC.
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - Dithrambus - 08-31-2010
Quote:MeinPanzer wrote:
Now if you want to see something that will really blow your mind, look at the fallen shield on this late 4th c. BC painted Bosporan pelike which was on display in the Pergamon museum when I was there a few years ago:
http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/pelike.jpg
Not only is it roughly shaped like a medieval shield, but it features a Templar cross in exactly the right colour scheme - red on white! I'd never seen this design used in Greek art before seeing this pelike.
OK, mind blown!
hock: That is fascinating!
So the Templars lifted their shield device (and shield design) from the 4thc bc?
I knew the swastika was an ancient symbol, but a pre Christian era cross? Are there other examples like this?
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - Giannis K. Hoplite - 08-31-2010
OK,this look suspicious. It isn't completely impossible that such a symbol existed in greece,there are some rather peculiar designs on shields,but i wonder if there is any possibility that it was retouched in medieval times...Do we know anything on the context it was found?
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - WorkMonkey1 - 08-31-2010
A cross is an ancient symbol that does not begin with christianity, just because it is the same colour scheme does not mean it was lifted by the templars, I think its pure coincidence, the colour system used by the templars has its own particular meaning relating to christianity (white for purity/ red for the blood of christ) since this is not relevent to the ancient greeks, their cross did not have that same meaning, but meant something else. What did it mean? I don't know, but it's certainly not a conspiracy theory that proves christ was alive in the 4th C BC
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - Giannis K. Hoplite - 08-31-2010
Well,certainly not. But although the cross appears in greek motifs regularly,it is usually just a geometric design that is so useful because for instance separates space in four pannels where other designs han be shown. For this it is usually surrounded by a square and in general it isn't a symbol that you'll find alone because it seems for the greeks it didn't have some religious or other significance. They rather preferred the stars/sun for instance (with four,six,eight and more rays). So rather than saying that the cross is an ancient symbol predating Christianity-which is certainly true- i would appreciate it if you had any depictions of the cross alone on greek art, and even more a cross of the style depicted in this vase.
It would be fascinating if it is pure luck, but i would rather be sure that it hasn't been retouched in more modern times (like some ancient greek helmets have been,for instance)
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - immortal - 08-31-2010
No need to contact Dan brown just yet.... The cross is as old as civilization, it represents the zodiac in Mesopotamia. Either this is just a coincidence (not even a significant one), or as Giannis points out, it has been retouched later on.
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - hoplite14gr - 08-31-2010
Well the Orphic had aymbol known as KROYSSOS Is interesting to think that the word cross in most languages came from this term.
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - hoplite14gr - 08-31-2010
Well the Orphics had symbol known as KROYSSOS Is interesting to think that the word cross in most languages came from this term.
Kind regards
Re: Amazon with.....medieval shield!!!!!!!!!!! - PMBardunias - 08-31-2010
Might that cross be an ankh? is there a common link between the Greek kroyssos and the ankh?