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Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Printable Version

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Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Apollyon - 08-29-2010

Greek art typically shows the scabbard on the left side, suspended by a baldric hanging from the right shoulder. Practical experience has shown me that if the sword fits loosely in the scabbard, it can be drawn straight out if one hits a kind of "sweet spot" where everything is lined up just right. If the draw is a little off from the "sweet spot"--or the sword has a snug fit instead of a loose fit--the sword can hang up during the draw.

Is the art that shows what appears to be nothing more than a baldric perhaps using a kind of shorthand that omits auxilliary suspension tack?


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Apollyon - 08-29-2010

In the Alexander Mosaic, there appears to be a baldric like strap whose front top end is fastened to Alexander's linothorax; if a second strap leading from the scabbard were anchored somewhere behind Alexander, the scabbard would be held fast because the rig wouldn't slip around like a regular baldric.

http://www.astro.rug.nl/~weygaert/tim1p ... .web.2.jpg


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Apollyon - 08-29-2010

Here's a scene with Achilles fighting Hector. The nude Achilles has his scabbard suspended by a baldric that appears to have considerable slack in it. Hector's scabbard also appears to be suspended by a baldric with a considerable amount of slack and seems to be suspended from a single point of attachment.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/ashp/N ... ektor3.jpg


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Giannis K. Hoplite - 08-29-2010

I'm not sure i have understood what you said,but the concept of greek baldrics and the position of the sword is this one: The Sword not only hungs in an angle because it is suspended always from the upper side of the scabard,but it also hungs very high. Look how high under the arm is the sword of Alexander. In the other vase,the baldrics may seem loose,but if you compare the position of the scabards with the thights,for instance,you'll realize how high they hung. What does this mean? That practically such short baldrics cannot be loose. Why are they so high? Because it is very probable that the hoplite used his left elbow to secure the scabard on his body and draw the sword. This can be done even while carrying a shield. The suspention on the one side of the scabbard about an inch under the scabbard throat makes sure that the grip will be in the correct position and angle to reach it even when pressed on your shield during battle.
Khaire
Giannis


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - M. Demetrius - 08-29-2010

Could the appearance of slack be the artist's way of showing the rapid motion that would be normal for quick motions in combat? Could it be an attempt at showing the curved surface of the warriors' bodies?

I can't think of a way that a weight on a loop could be slack. Seems like gravity would always bring the line up taut at the bottom of the loop, unless the combatants were in outer space... :lol:


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Apollyon - 08-29-2010

Quote:Because it is very probable that the hoplite used his left elbow to secure the scabard on his body and draw the sword. This can be done even while carrying a shield.

Thanks. That is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.

Quote:The suspention on the one side of the scabbard about an inch under the scabbard throat makes sure that the grip will be in the correct position and angle to reach it even when pressed on your shield during battle.

And what kind of suspension was this? Rings or hoops on the side of the scabbard? Loops on the ends of the baldric that were slid up the scabbard for a snug fit at the top of the scabbard?


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - M. Demetrius - 08-29-2010

My guess would be a small loop that captured the ring that was held firmly to the scabbard. Not movable. If there were some adjustable mechanism for the strap, it would not be at the ring, as nothing of the kind shows in the pictorial below. Since a sword was an individual item, it seems like the strap would be made the "right length" and not need adjustment.


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Apollyon - 08-29-2010

Quote:I can't think of a way that a weight on a loop could be slack.

What I meant was the loose fit of the baldric due to the excess length of its material. If someone lifts the weight on the loop (i.e., pulls on the handle of the snug-fitting sword), there's nothing holding the scabbard fast so that the sword can be pulled out. Now if the baldric simply served the purpose of bearing the weight of the sword and scabbard, and some kind of auxilliary strap, thong, or belt served the purpose of securing the scabbard to the side of the wearer, the sword could easily be pulled out of a scabbard on a longer baldric without the longer baldric losing any tautness. I've heard of such suspension apparatus appropos of medieval re-enactment but not of Greek/Macedonian re-enactment.


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Giannis K. Hoplite - 08-29-2010

The scabbard is suspended by a system of four rings. The weight is carried by the two on the upper side of the scabbard. The baldric is then crossed over the scabbard on both sides (since the scabbard is double, when folded to for the loop it creates four tripes,crossed by two on each side). This is my interpretation in fact,but it works and it looks like the art. It also gives some function to the fact that very often the baldric is double.
Here are some photos:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1283113635
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1283113639
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1283113640
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1283113643
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 1283113549
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alliandde/ ... otostream/
In this one you might see some similarities with how it hungs in the vase
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4115/486 ... 7768_z.jpg
And my interpretation in detail attached
Khaire
Giannis


Re: Greek and Macedonian Scabbard Suspension - Lýsandros - 09-29-2010

Thanks for pictures of your interpretation Giannis!

I have done some experiments of my own, but I am wondering how yours will work out. If it will work better for me, I will post some pictures of my kopis' scabbard suspension, Giannis-style. Smile