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+--- Thread: Swords of Iphicrates (/showthread.php?tid=17361)
Swords of Iphicrates - PMBardunias - 08-17-2010
We are told that Iphicrates created a new troop type by altering the panoply of his day. One feature of this was to lengthen the sword:
Quote:Diodoros 15.44:
As regards spear (doratos) and sword (xiphous), he made changes in the contrary direction: namely, he increased the length of the spears by half, and made the swords almost twice as long.
This is often taken to mean that he created particularly long swords- beyond the norm for what hoplites had used throughout history. I've been playing around with wooden models of various historical swords and created a model of a standard Machaira of the 5th c, a Xiphos modelled after a late 4thc example and a putative Laconian short sword from a sculpted image. In the creation of these swords, I did not work off measurements, but scaled images to a grip length of about 3.5" to use as patterns. Thus, the swords are in proper scale with eachother if we assume that grip length must have been relatively constant and governed by the hand of a wielder.
As you can see, if the Laconian short sword a) existed, and b) was the most common type in use by hoplites in the early 4th c, then Iphicrates need not have created extra-long swords, but simply returned to the traditional lengths seen before the spread of the Laconian.
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - Giannis K. Hoplite - 08-17-2010
Good observation. However i wonder about (b). Why hasn't it become the norm on artistic representations? It does exist,but in the funerary stelae of the Athenians,only the killed oponents hold them. I do agree that swods had become relatively short by the end of the 5th century,but the laconian swords is something exceptional!And rarely shown.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - PMBardunias - 08-17-2010
Quote:However i wonder about (b). Why hasn't it become the norm on artistic representations? It does exist,but in the funerary stelae of the Athenians,only the killed oponents hold them. I do agree that swods had become relatively short by the end of the 5th century,but the laconian swords is something exceptional!And rarely shown.
Such small swords are also seen on many Boeotian stelae of this period- often held in the left hand, which is interesting in and of itself in terms of accessing them during battle. I should note that I corresponded once about Laconian swords with Dr. Lazenby and he warned me that we really have no contemporary literary evidence for a Laconian short sword.
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - hoplite14gr - 08-17-2010
The short swords (almost daggers) were known from the bronze age.
In the Hoplite period the appear in art as early as 6th centuru B.C.
The "laconian" sword issue started from the Spartan who complained to his mother an received a "bitchy" reply. (source Plutarch)
Just because he had a short sword, it does not mean that his fellow hoplites had exactly the same type.
So I am inclined to agree with Dr. Lazenby
Kind regards
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - PMBardunias - 08-17-2010
Quote:The "laconian" sword issue started from the Spartan who complained to his mother an received a "bitchy" reply
There is also an adult Spartan who when his short sword is derided explains that he lengthens it with a stride and another who replies that they still reach their foes- all from Plutarch, so late. I think Plato describes that jugglers like to use Laconian swords, which has been interpreted as being because they are short.
Here are some examples of the short xiphos in art of the period.
I think there probably is something to the tradition and that, like the Pilos, it spread around Greece.
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - hoplite14gr - 08-18-2010
It is probably that that the Spartans were among the first to re-employ short swords in large numbers that impressed others but these type of blade predated the Spartans.
Kind regards
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - Giannis K. Hoplite - 08-18-2010
Of course Stefane,but was it ever used in battle? Yes it was,in the Mycenean times as we see in frescos from Pylos. But again,wouldn't this be irrelevant? I mean,the sword took its name "Laconian" clearly much later than the Mycenean times. And the classical Greeks who were calling it laconian,reffered to it like this because the Laconians were using it in Phalanx battle. So the question is not if such swords existed (they exist till today if you ask me,they're just big knives) but if they have been used in phalanx battle. And to this question we have yet no justified answer. Because i have regularly seen common greek swords with blades close to 40 cm, from early 5th or late 6th century, but these don't seem to have been "laconian" swords. We find these blades all over greece,and nobody made an anecdote about a macedonian coplaining about his sword sword.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - hoplite14gr - 08-18-2010
Paul please give the Plato passage if possble.
Giannis, Plutarch is far away from classical times and the sword is shown in combat in the 5th cent. relief in Vienna Kunsthistorishes museum with two dueling warriors using it.
I am not convinced that classical Greeks called it laconian.
Kind regards
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - PMBardunias - 08-18-2010
Quote:Paul please give the Plato passage if possble.
I seem to be wrong, the juggler is mentioned by Plutarch. Plutarch also records a use of a short sword:
Quote:Plut. Dio 57.2] They made no headway, however, and called for a sword; but no one ventured to open the door. For Dion's companions inside were many in number; but each of them thought that by abandoning Dion to his fate he would save his own life, and so no one ventured to help him. After some delay, Lycon the Syracusan handed through the window to one of the Zacynthians a shortsword, and with this they cut Dion's throat as if he had been a victim at the altar; he had long since been overpowered and was quivering before the stroke.
It is probaly from the relationship between Dion and Plato that I got confused. I don't have the greek of Plutarch above, but some translations specifically call it a laconian sword, so this may be in the original.
So all references are late.
Re: Swords of Iphicrates - hoplite14gr - 08-19-2010
It was not a short sword but a dagger "egxeiridion" (enchiridion)
Please see attachment (The "laconian sword" is still questionable)
kind regards