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+--- Thread: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? (/showthread.php?tid=17335)
Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - Longovicium - 08-14-2010
I have an old copy of Phil Barker's 'Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome' on my shelf and have always used his illustration of the 'rough' structure of the late legio as a basis on which to hang my writing. However, lately I have begun to wonder about his use of the 'ordo' as unit descriptor of what used to be referred to as the maniple. I know Ammianus frequently uses the maniple as his preferred term and that has been seen as a classicising bent in his writings - therefore 'maniple' did not accurately reflect contemporary Roman usage. I wonder if anyone here can point out exactly where the 'ordo' or 'ordine' comes from or if Barker's use of the term has now been superseded?
I would be grateful if the 'ordo' term could be illustrated with references, if is is a viable late Roman military term, as I am begining to loose confidence in deploying it!
Re: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - sonic - 08-14-2010
You could try the Lewis and Short online dictionary: [url:19twp1ls]http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?redirect=true&lang=Latin[/url] This includes some - if not all - references to the use the words. This could help you in your search.
Re: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - Longovicium - 08-15-2010
Thanks - alas, I don't read Latin and so my grasp of the context in which 'ordo' appears is very limited!
Re: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - sonic - 08-15-2010
Quote:Thanks - alas, I don't read Latin and so my grasp of the context in which 'ordo' appears is very limited!
OK.
Click on the link.
On the left, in the 'Search for' section, type 'ordo' in the box. Click on 'Search'.
Click on the number 4,406 under 'Max.Freq.'
This gives a list of the references for 'Ordo'. Even though they are in Latin, you can then go through to find where the word is used by late authors such as Ammianus.
Although long-winded, it's probably the most accurate way of finding out what word is used.
I think it's probably fair to say that the vast majority of people on this forum - myself included! - read the translations, rather than the original Latin, and so don't know where the word being translated is 'Ordo'.
Mind you, I could be wrong! :lol:
Re: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - Longovicium - 08-15-2010
Thanks! That is an invaluable source.
What I am really interested in is where the word emerged within late Roman academic/military studies as a point of identification for the old maniple. Barker uses it without explanation as to why it became the accepted term instead of maniple. For him (in my old copy) it simple exists as a descriptor for a unit of apprx. 200 men (the old maniple size) - there is some evidence (mostly epigraphical) that maniple survived into the later empire under Justinian so I am curious if Barker simply got it wrong or if in fact the 'ordo' was used by the military of the day for the old manipular unit of two centuriones . . .
Right, off to trawl through some 4,000 entries!
Re: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - sonic - 08-15-2010
Quote:Right, off to trawl through some 4,000 entries!
Enjoy!! :lol: :lol:
Re: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - Longovicium - 08-15-2010
How did you know I was a masochist, sir?
Re: Late Roman Ordo or Maniple? - sonic - 08-15-2010
Quote:How did you know I was a masochist, sir?
I checked your location!! :mrgreen: