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Longer Hoplite Spear - rocktupac - 06-06-2010
As I scour over the thousand or so images of warriors wearing the Tube-and-Yoke corselet (for probably the 10th time!) I've noticed that a few hoplites are holding longer spears than what is 'normal'. I've posted a couple images to give you an example. These longer spears seem to be half again as long at the typical spear we see on vase paintings used by hoplites (maybe 10-12 feet). I don't have too much experience in Classical Greek weaponry, so I'm not sure if this is expected or has been dealt with elsewhere, but it seemed very odd to me and worth noting since I've always read that the hoplite's spear was around 7 or 8 feet long. I understand that trying to determine measurements based off vase paintings is a tricky business. These observations are based off scale. What does everyone else think?
[attachment=2:201ufps7]<!-- ia2 achilles 2b mid 5th c 2.jpg<!-- ia2 [/attachment:201ufps7]
(Above) The spear Achilles holds seems to be a little longer than normal hoplite spears, but this could easily be about 9 or 10 feet -- still quite long. It's also interesting that what appears to be a spear grip is located on the back third of the spear and not in the center or slightly off center.
[attachment=1:201ufps7]<!-- ia1 beazley, ARV2, 211.194, c.480-460bc 2.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:201ufps7]
(Above) Here is the typical example of a hoplite holding a spear of the usual length.
[attachment=0:201ufps7]<!-- ia0 volute krater - painter of bologna 2.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:201ufps7]
(Above) The warrior in the blue box holds a spear of the normal length, there is another person to the right holding a similar sized spear. The warrior in the green box, however, is holding a very long spear. This is important that they appear on the same vase, showing that the longer hoplite's spear is simply not an artists' rendering or an anomaly. He also wears a helmet (pushed back) and a muscle-cuirass. The top and bottom of his long spear are marked out with green arrows.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Astiryu1 - 06-06-2010
I read in one version of the Iliad that the spear of Hector was 13 ft long. Longer spears are mostly a heroic attribute in my view. The length may have been embellished due to the strength needed to wield it properly; especially in single combat. The spear I made for myself was originally 11 ft long but I had to shorten it to 9ft. I feel mainly that these spears if they existed had three primary uses.
Increased reach in a phalanx
Increased reach while attacking/defending walls
A sort of mental warfare with the opponent
The mental aspect is evident when you spar with someone. If you can wield a longer spear against a shorter spear you are likely to draw first blood. My brother for one doesn't like longer weapons in sparring. He isn't as tall so I naturally have an edge there and I am better trained with polearms with more strength. He is faster so favors a shorter and lighter weapon to help. He really doesn't like it when I swing in a circular motion either. The sound alone freaks him out.
Granted I am no expert in Greek warfare but somethings are valid everywhere.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - hoplite14gr - 06-06-2010
A "tapered shaft" spear can allow you an "unusuall" length in you spear....BUT
in real life and after having handled various spear lengths.......hmmm...........
Phalanx mechanics discourage extremities of all types.
Yet it is interesting to think that in a naval fight or with an extremely tough reed...hmmmm
Truth is that extremely long wooden shafts have problems.
Its better to handle extremely long items with both hands.
Kind regards
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Astiryu1 - 06-06-2010
I agree with Stephanos. Anything longer than 8 ft was uncommon. Until the Sarissa of course and that was used with 2 hands. Most Asian spear fencing is done with 2 hands as well even the shorter spears.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - PMBardunias - 06-07-2010
Quote:It's also interesting that what appears to be a spear grip is located on the back third of the spear and not in the center or slightly off center.
I believe this to be the standard for classical hoplite spears. Hunt through the threads here and you'll see we have discussed this at, dare I say, length? There are a number of detailed images showing the spear had a wrap applied at about 1/3 up from the base. This was presumably achieved by a combination of tapered shaft and rear weight due to the relative mass of spear head and sauroter. Remember that sauroters were mostly hollow so this is less than many suspect, but then again so were the spear heads (there is a whole thread on this with images). The result is an 8' spear with a "reach" of 5.28', as opposed to 4'. Interestingly a 12 center balanced spear, the largest size really usable with one hand, has a reach of only 6', which may have implications for Iphicratids and a simple parity with hoplites.
There are some images of cavalry dorys that seem very long and exceptionally tapered, this may be the source of longer spears.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Astiryu1 - 06-07-2010
Troy was known for their horses; and it would make sense if one dismounted the longer spear would find a use as an Infantry weapon. Thanks Paul! I didn't even make that connection before you mentioned the Cavalry lance.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - rocktupac - 06-07-2010
None of this really seems to answer the question. To briefly sum up: these aren't sarissae; the location of the spear grip is not all that important; neither of the images I've posted have anything to do with cavalrymen; Achilles was not a warrior from Troy and therefore would have no direct connection with horses.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - PMBardunias - 06-07-2010
Quote:To briefly sum up: these aren't sarissae; the location of the spear grip is not all that important; neither of the images I've posted have anything to do with cavalrymen; Achilles was not a warrior from Troy and therefore would have no direct connection with horses.
If you take a closer look at the images, you'll see that the spear is not really that long, probably 8-9 feet, less that double the height of the man. In the last image, he is the only one holding a dory, the other warriors are holding a pair of spears, thus probably longche. Given some artistic exageration this is not much beyond the common length for dorys. That said, there are long cavalry spears as I mentioned, and since a Greek audeince would have read of the extra-long Achean spears used in defense of the ships, supposedly inspiring Phillip, any long spear in a homeric context is suspect.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - hoplite14gr - 06-07-2010
Paul is probably right.
I only leave "breathing space" for the long "xyston naymachon" (naval fight spear - open to interpretation of it really was) and the fact that Homer or other artists might have seen images similar to the "Acrotiri Frescoes" showing bronze age warriors with long spears.
Kind regards
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Archelaos - 06-07-2010
Spears of Homeric warriors are quite long, this may be the reason - Hector, mentioned already, is said to posses 11 cubit (endekapechu - VI,319) spear, but that is nothing compared to 22 cubit (duokaieikosipechu - XV,678) spear of Ajax
hock: , so maybe some heroes were traditionally shown with such enormous weapons. Those spears are probably "boarding weapons" as they are named naumacha.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Astiryu1 - 06-07-2010
Quote:None of this really seems to answer the question. To briefly sum up: these aren't sarissae; the location of the spear grip is not all that important; neither of the images I've posted have anything to do with cavalrymen; Achilles was not a warrior from Troy and therefore would have no direct connection with horses.
Sorry! I did not mean that the Sarissa was part of any Homeric battle. I was stating that there was a gradual lengthening of spears for the infantry in Greece culminating in the Sarissa. Achilles defeated many warriors from Troy thus the Battle spoils would be a reward. Once Hector was slain by Achilles he was stripped of arms and armor and likely the 11 foot long spear he wielded. An artist might want to represent that. I am intrigued about the longer spears for naval combat. That seems to make the most sense.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-07-2010
Scott,can you post the third photo without the coloured boxes? Do you have more photos of this vase? This seems to be the vase with the battle scene of the (presumambly) seven against thebes,on the other side of the vase. Or it is at least made by the same artist.
Do add some food for the discussion,it's different the sight of a 1,6 m man next to a 2,5 m
spear and different that of a 1,9m man next to the same spear. Just to take two examples of common hight of men then and now.
Khairete
Giannis
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Paullus Scipio - 06-08-2010
Indeed, Giannis makes a good point. Assuming the man with the longer spear is 1.6.m (5 ' 4") his spear - at 1.5 times his height - comes out at 2.4m ( 7 ' 10" ) - within the usual 7-9 ft for the 'Doru'.
The shorter spears, somewhat taller than the figure, are likely to be the typical 'dual-purpose' short throwing/thrusting spear, the 'longche' ( latin: lancea) common to many cultures, also used for hunting, and typically coming in pairs. At a little under 1.25 times height, they scale out at less than 2m ( 6'6") - within the usual range of 5 - 7 ft for such weapons. It is not possible to gauge Achilles' spear since the artist appears to have attempted perspective and it appears to slope away from the viewer.....
All this is subject to the usual caveat that artists were not concerned with "scale" but rather fitting the subject onto the medium....
Broadly speaking spear-type weapons fall into the following categories:
javelins - small heads, no butts, thin shafts c. 3-4 ft long - purely missile/throwing weapons.
dual-purpose spears - larger heads, generally no butts, c, 5-7 ft long, often carried in pairs, the dual throwing/thrusting weapon; also the typical 'hunting spear' as well as a weapon of war (e.g Gk:longche Lat: lancea)
thrusting spear - larger head, usually counter-balanced by butt,usually centre-balanced,thicker shaft, not suitable for throwing, c. 7-9 ft long, used in war only, often called 'Great Spear' ( e.g. Gk : Doru Lat: Hasta )
sarissa long two-handed pike 14-18 ft long, possibly of Thracian origin, made famous by Philip's Macedonian army, used in conjunction with a round 'pelta' shield, 60-70 cm/ 24- 28 "/8 palms diameter
cavalry lance - small head, large butt, often tapered to give balance point one-third down shaft, c. 9-12 ft long ( e.g Gk: Kamax - literally 'reed' - a thrusting weapon, possibly of Thessalian origin, which began to augment/replace javelins as the primary weapon of Greek cavalry from the last quarter of the 5th C BC.
This weapon ( long, small head, tapered shaft, large butt, balance point one-third up shaft) seems to have been adopted by some Hoplites also ( perhaps to counter the mounted version) but did not replace the centre-balanced 'Doru' probably because in use the tapered head was more likely to break than the thicker-shafted 'doru'.
Macedonian lance - the 'xyston', typically around 12ft long, similar to the 'kamax,' but with a larger head and thicker shaft ( probably approaching the limit of single-handed weapons) - the weapon 'par excellence' of Macedonian cavalry ( heavy and light) famously wielded by Alexander on the "Alexander Mosaic".
Two-handed cavalry lance - the 'kontos' ( lit: barge pole) around 12 ft long with very large head, and thick shaft ( hence stiffer and less likely to break than 'xyston') used two-handed, probably developed by nomad steppe peoples ( e.g. Massagetae) after encountering Alexander's cavalry - later adopted by Hellenistic heavily armoured cavalry - 'kataphraktoi' (lit; covered in ), and also adopted by some Roman cavalry c. 100 AD after fighting Parthians so armed.
Note that this is a generalisation and doesn't cover 'boarding pikes' ( long, two-handed, used at sea) or other specialist weapons such as the 'dorudrepanon' - a long halberd-like weapon with spearpoint and cutting blade used by pirates and the like to cut rigging/cut down sails of ships. Within these generalisations, weapons could vary considerably and, for example, spear (doru) heads come in myriad variations......
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - PMBardunias - 06-08-2010
An excellent overview. I have a couple comments:
Quote:dual-purpose spears - larger heads, generally no butts, c, 5-7 ft long, often carried in pairs, the dual throwing/thrusting weapon; also the typical 'hunting spear' as well as a weapon of war (e.g Gk:longche Lat: lancea)
We know from Xenophon that boar spears were wielded in a two handed grip, and were probably thicker that the usual Longche. The existence of a two handed spear that all Greeks would have been familiar with is often overlooked when the "invention" of two handed sarissa occurs. Its not the grip, but the length that neccesitated it that is novel.
Quote:cavalry lance - small head, large butt, often tapered to give balance point one-third down shaft, c. 9-12 ft long ( e.g Gk: Kamax - literally 'reed' - a thrusting weapon, possibly of Thessalian origin, which began to augment/replace javelins as the primary weapon of Greek cavalry from the last quarter of the 5th C BC...this weapon ( long, small head, tapered shaft, large butt, balance point one-third up shaft) seems to have been adopted by some Hoplites also ( perhaps to counter the mounted version) but did not replace the centre-balanced 'Doru' probably because in use the tapered head was more likely to break than the thicker-shafted 'doru'.
These are also commonly called "doru"- for example by Xenophon who complains of them breaking. I think they were quite widespread in the late 5th c for a few reasons. I see no need to relegate them to anticavalry uses since any reach advantage in doratismos might well be worth the chance of breakage. Once "some" began to use them, the foot and a half of reach advantage might well leave a foe unable to strike back if his forward motion is limited by being in a phalanx, and push all to adopt it. It is easy to predict an arms race in spear length up to a physical limit.
I have often been told that 12' is the upper limit for a one handed spear, after that they become difficult to point (unless couched like a lance I suppose). Of course size of the hoplite plays into this, and most of use are far bigger than the average hoplite. The reason that the length is important is that it is the length of a lever arm acting upon your grip. Thus an 8-9 foot spear that is rear weighted is functionally the same as a center balanced 12' spear, with nearly the same reach- but less sticking out back to kill your friends. A rear weighted 12' spear is really the equivalent of a spear of almost 16'!!!
Something I was just discussing with Scipio, but have never seen written about, is the balance of a broken dory and how it governs sauroter usage. Presumably most dorys broke at the socket, but even still, this puts the balance point closer to the sauroter, perhaps within only 2' or less for a tapered dory. Either the hoplite stabbed with a front heavy spear, not easy to do, try stabbing with a baseball bat, or he only had a weapon that was as long as a sword. Better to just draw the sword as soon as you can.
Sarissas were always biased forward because the balance point is at the foregrip, thus even if center balanced the pivot point could be an arms length from the sarissaphoroi. In fact the double grip allows you to hold it beyond the balance point in a way that can't be done with a single overhand grip, and can only be accomplished with a single grip if the shaft lays along the forearm in a "high underhand" grip.
Lastly, is this a Dorudrepanon or some type of boat-hook? I have read that there are images showing something more akin to the later Rhomphaia, but I have not seen one.
Re: Longer Hoplite Spear - Paullus Scipio - 06-08-2010
Paul B. wrote:
Quote:Sarissas were always biased forward because the balance point is at the foregrip, thus even if center balanced the pivot point could be an arms length from the sarissaphoroi. In fact the double grip allows you to hold it beyond the balance point in a way that can't be done with a single overhand grip, and can only be accomplished with a single grip if the shaft lays along the forearm in a "high underhand" grip.
Connolly, using maximum 'tapered shaft, small head, large butt' technology showed that the balance/pivot point was always ahead of the leading hand - around 350 mm-480mm ( 14 inches- 19 inches) depending on the size of the head.....
Quote:I see no need to relegate them to anticavalry uses since any reach advantage in doratismos might well be worth the chance of breakage.I didn't say they were restricted to counter the cavalry 'kamax', merely that with its introduction, a cavalryman could outreach an ordinary 'doru', and that the introduction of the tapered infantry spear was, as you suggest, part of an 'arms race' . We know from the iconography that it did not replace the normal 'doru', and as to how widespread its use, we cannot tell......
Quote:Lastly, is this a Dorudrepanon or some type of boat-hook? I have read that there are images showing something more akin to the later Rhomphaia, but I have not seen one.
This weapon is likely to be a "longche-drepanon" ( no, I'm not making this up! ) because of its smaller shaft - the 'drepanon' part refers to the sickle-shaped blade.A "doru-drepanon" would likely have had a similar head, but a larger, longer shaft.....