Vatican shield photos! - Printable Version

Vatican shield photos! - Printable Version

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Vatican shield photos! - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-02-2010

In April i visited Rome and at last i found the Museo Gregoriano opened. So i headed for the infamous "Vatican shield",and i can say i was more impressed than what i was expecting.
Unfortunately i had only half an houre before this section of the museum was closing. The vatican choses without notification and obvious schedule when the museum opens and closes. So when i went,the etruscan section was closing for a couple of hours or more. But it wasn't too big,and i was basicly interested in the bronzes,so i didn't even see the Achilles-Ajax vase by Eksekias!
I took many photos though and i thought this is the place to post them since so many people would be delighted.
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As you can see,the wood is in great condition. The grain is visible and the colour is retained. The leather is in relatively good condition too,compared with other greek artifacts. But this one wasn't found in mainland greece anyway.
You can also see how thick the shoulders are. It is not valid that the shield was thicker in the center and in the area of the greatest angle it was thinner. It is getting thinner and thinner relatively evenly as it goes towards the center. Blyth says that in the center under the porpax it was slightly thicker than in other places farther around. It is unclear though if this was a cercular area in the center that was thicker or just the wood under the porpax,just to allow it to be nailed more steadily in thicker wood. Nor is it clear if it was made like this in purpose. This i think was a difference of around 2 mm. Unfortunately the shield is too fragmental.
In some of the photos you can also see how thin the cover was.
Sorry if some photos are a bit blurry,i was lucky that they allowed photos,but no flash.
Enjoy
Giannis

Re: Vatican shield photos! - PMBardunias - 06-02-2010

Giannis those are beautiful! By coincidence I just posted the dimensions over on the other thread, so I'll copy it here:

That aspis's face is only 5-6mm thick, thickening to 8mm near the center of the dome- the side walls where the dome turns being more than twice as thick. He estimayes that due to shrinkage they were 25-30% thicker when made, but that is still only 7-9 mm for much of the face (12-18 mm on the sides). The bronze face was only around 0.5 mm thick- substantially thinner than helmets of the day. He estimates the whole thing at 6.2 kg (13.5 lbs), 3 kg of which is the complete bronze face which could be just a rim in many aspides. This is not the bulky shield that most envision it to be.

I have been experimenting with the design of the Vatican aspis and others for some time now, and though I can't really share much yet, but I can show an image of the profile of the shield. Interestingly, these pictures make it look a bit more like a type I reconstructed on the left from vase imagery as opposed to what Blyth drew on the right- accounting for warping, perhaps somewhere between the two.

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Kineas - 06-02-2010

good work! And thanks!

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Paullus Scipio - 06-02-2010

Great post, Giannis! ...alas that we cannot award laudes!

It should be noted that, as is obvious from the photos - note the missing centre - the first one is not of "THE Vatican shield", but of a second example in the Museo Gregoriano ( as I have pointed out before when photos of it were posted, I think by you, previously). This second shield does not appear to have been studied closely, for I have never been able to find anything on it.......unfortunately. Anyone out there know differently ?

There is at least one other Etruscan Aspides, referred to by Blyth, one from Vulci (Tomb of the Warrior) described by U.Ferragutti I Bronzi di Vulci, St Etr. XI (1937), p16 ff. If anyone can get this I'm sure Paul B. and myself would be grateful.... ( it's possible the reference is to a wall-painting rather than an actual shield, like Blyth's other reference to a shield from the 'Tomb of the Velii' nr Florence described in G.C Conestabile 'Pittura Murali' p.127 tav./plates 12 and 7
and U. Tarchi 'L'Arte etrusco-romana nell'Umbria e nello Sabina' Milano 1939 tav./plate 25)

THE Vatican shield, described in detail by Blyth, was recovered in 1830, probably from a tomb in Pianmiano near Bomarzo ( and the Etruscan city of Volsinii), and when found were accompanied by helmet and greaves, since separated and lost.
The shield is slightly out of true circular, being 81.5-82 cm diameter ( probably due to slightly loose bearings in the horizontal lathe it was likely made on).The fittings were found loose, and have been re-attached.

Some clarification of Paul's reference to thickness is required.
The sides/walls of the (probably Poplar) wooden bowl are presently 10-14 mm thick, slightly thicker where it meets the rim,(i.e. the sharply curved 'shoulder') but the face is 5-6mm at the edge, rising to 8 mm aprox in the centre. Blyth reckons on shrinkage being fairly uniform, and from the shape, about 25%, giving an original thickness of 12-18 mm in the sides/walls of the 'shoulder', and the face increasing from 7-9mm at the edges to 10-11mm in the middle. As Paul B. has pointed out, this is much lighter and thinner than previously thought for the Aspis, though it is possible that earlier VI th C examples were thicker and heavier. That this is likely a "battle-shield" and not ceremonial is indicated by two slashing scars on the face, consistent with sword blows. Blyth has demonstrated that such a shield, while not completely 'weapon-prof' would provide good and adequate protection. ( c.f. Dura-Europos scutum, presently 6-7 mm thick at it's edges, and probably also originally 8-10mm thick, and thicker toward the centre)

The outer bronze layer, some 0.5 mm thick, in addition to being hammered on, was also glued with pitch, while the inside was lined with thin leather which was stitched and glued on.

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-02-2010

Some more information addition that might be of interest, examination hasn't shown any traces of the glue that kept the wooden plnks together. In fact the exact borders of the planks can't be recognised,nor their original number can be asumed. There is a drawing of the shield around that in fact i think it is from Blyth's article,that indicates the lines of the planks. It also shows the different small pieces that consisted the rim re-enforcements. All these are hypothetical in that drawing. Even the surviving rim re-enforcements have been found loose,and they have been put back inside the rim speculatively.
Khairete
Giannis

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-02-2010

It looks like the rim bronze is a separate piece from the bowl metal. Is that correct or just looks that way?

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Lessa - 06-02-2010

Quote:i didn't even see the Achilles-Ajax vase by Eksekias!

That vase is in the upper level, in a narrow corridor.
I saw that shield during my permanence in Rome for Rome dies natalis.
i have passed almost 3 hours looking every single piece of the museum, expecially Villanovian shields and this Etruscan aspis.
And of course the statue of Mars from Todi... that was amazing, i have also draw it.

well, good photographic service Giannis! Thanks!

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Lessa - 06-02-2010

Paulus i'm searching for the titles you have posted, if i find something i'll let you know.

edit:
http://books.google.com/books?id=G6TSvQ ... &q&f=false

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Jona Lendering - 06-02-2010

Quote:In April i visited Rome and at last i found the Museo Gregoriano opened.

ENVY. I've tried to go there for at least ten years, sometimes twice a year, and it is always closed... I am happy for you.

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Paullus Scipio - 06-02-2010

Quote:It looks like the rim bronze is a separate piece from the bowl metal. Is that correct or just looks that way?

The bronze sheet face is a single piece, 'tightened' by being hammered into the groove (2mm deep) between bowl and rim. The bronze face goes over the rim and onto the back of the shield, to a distance of 4 cm aprox. Remarkably, and testament to the skill of the artisan, this has been achieved without leaving wrinkles, overlaps, 'darts' or cuts.

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-02-2010

Quote:ENVY. I've tried to go there for at least ten years, sometimes twice a year, and it is always closed... I am happy for you.

Well,don't be fooled,i also tried two more times in the same year,each time visiting the museum twice,and never entering,just because it was the Gregoriano i mainly wanted to see. As you yourself have said,Jona,the whole Huge Vatican museum is a mere corridor to the Capella Sistina,doing a circle or two all around the museum!
And here's a bonus photo:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/466 ... 3088_b.jpg
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I had never ever seen a rear view of the Mars of Todi,and this was the place i most wanted to see. Basicly,the size and attachment of the yoke to the back plate.
I am sure now that this type of armour was made of leather,not bronze as Connolly interpreted. It is very clear now to me since all the etruscan depictions,some of them very detailed and with a variety of colours in the scenes,show this type of armour white.Exactly the same matterial as the pteryges. And the Mars of Todi shows sines of softness and flexibility to the matterial.
It a bit smaller than i was expecting it. I thought it was life size but it isn't. The detail though is stunning. Invaliable artifact. Pity that the greeks weren't attested to using this style of tube and yoke. Really,its frequency in Etruscan art and its complete absence from any kind of mainland greek art is telling Sad

Byron,as Paullus described,the bronze facing,like almost all the existing examples,has that groove that makes it appear separate. Some shields all along that groove have small holes,through which the face was secured to the core. The vatican shield has only seven holes in the inner side of the rim.
Khairete
Giannis

EDIT: This photo as you can see has flash. Well,i was lucky. As the guards were closing one by one the rooms of the museum and were pushing as like a phalanx wall towards the gate,i decided to take one last photo. I re-opened the camera and i took the photo and i was surprized myself by the flash. You see every time i close it it goes to the default which is the automatic flash,so i took the flash photo with four guards one meter from me. They didn't tell me anything because i must have been too obviously surprised! :lol: All the other photos i took of it were dark and blurry :mrgreen:

Re: Vatican shield photos! - PMBardunias - 06-02-2010

I have a question about the thickening of the shield towards the middle. When I look at the fragments, none appear to make it to the middle of the shield face. I wonder if the thickness was derived from the porpax rivets. If not, I wonder what the length of the porpax rivets was.

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-02-2010

I too was thinking that the rivets are the safest way to calculate the thickness of the shield in different part and especiallt to the center.
However as you can see clearly in the 6th, 7th and 8th photo i posted,there is a quite large part that reaches under the upper part of the porpax. You might have not noticed it because it is all covered by dark leather.
Khaire
Giannis

Re: Vatican shield photos! - PMBardunias - 06-02-2010

Quote:You might have not noticed it because it is all covered by dark leather.

Thanks, I did not notice that there was wood under there. I do wonder at the length of those rivets becuae we might expect them to be a more accurate guage of the thickness that the warped and shrunken wood.

Re: Vatican shield photos! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-02-2010

Quote:
Gaius Julius Caesar:2csqfrx0 Wrote:It looks like the rim bronze is a separate piece from the bowl metal. Is that correct or just looks that way?

The bronze sheet face is a single piece, 'tightened' by being hammered into the groove (2mm deep) between bowl and rim. The bronze face goes over the rim and onto the back of the shield, to a distance of 4 cm aprox. Remarkably, and testament to the skill of the artisan, this has been achieved without leaving wrinkles, overlaps, 'darts' or cuts.

Thanks. Yes, that is skilled craftsmanship, as I am sure anyone who has attempted the edging for a scutum will appreciate....
I have only seen the spartan aspice facing in Athens, I hope to get to Rome again someday to see this one myself.
I would love to learn these skills, one of the desires that got me into re-enacting.