+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Reenactment (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Roman Re-Enactment & Reconstruction (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+--- Thread: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau (/showthread.php?tid=16637)
Pages:
1
2
Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - kevair464 - 03-24-2010
I am in the planning processes of commisioning a helmet for my late Caesarian (Late roman republican c. 44 bce - 30ish bce) Roman impression. I have a larger than average head, thus the indian helmets all fit me horribly, and I have gotten to the point that I want an accurate, good looking helmet that fits my impression.
The helmet I am looking to commision is the montefortino E, which is contemporary to the period, though this helmet is not manufactured by any current indian company, so I am having trouble finding pictures beyond this diagram, it is also referred to as the hagenau helmet.
I have includes a link to pictures of the historial find, which was complete with hinges, though did not have cheek guards so which cheech guards would be acceptable with this style of helmet? The monte cheek guard, or something more like the xanten coolus style guards?, also the third rivet hole is assumed to have been the attachment for feather plume holders?
Looking for help here, anyone please offer comments and suggestions, i want to end up with a comfortable, accurate, and unique helmet.
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... ml#Hagenau more pictures of the Hagenau series of helmets, no cheek pieces are shown.
from robinisen
More fully developed than the Type D, having the broad flattened neck guards and reinforcing peaks of their Coolus type contemporaries.
They retain a hollow crest knob that appears to be made in one with the bowl. The line of the neck where it rises from the centre of the crown does not always display the continuous flow of lines seen on earlier examples.
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-24-2010
I see there are two patchy areas on either side just above the rivets. Was there not a possibility these were feather holders soldered on?
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - kevair464 - 03-24-2010
Thats what I was wondering too, something was either soldered on there, or its a wear spot from something rivited below. The mystery continues
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-24-2010
Strange too is that the rivets seem to be opposite on either side. one side the top rivet if over the frontlower, the other side, seems to be over the rearlower...
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - kevair464 - 03-24-2010
Yeah thats odd, what i'm seeing is that it seems the bottom 2 rivets for the cheek guard are further forward on the left side than on the right, so the top rivet seems to be possitioned to place it just behind the brow re-enforcement, its definately not just camera angle, might have been a repair, or just shoddy craftsmanship
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - Peroni - 03-24-2010
Definately plume holders soldered on the sides at one time.
I'd try here first.. http://www.rudis-kuenstlerwerkstatt.de/ ... I-engl.htm
A simple crest knob brazed on and the joins polished out would bve acceptable I think. If you buy the unfinished sheet you should have enough material for the brow guard and cheek guards too.
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - kevair464 - 03-25-2010
Thanks Adrian. Do u know where I can find dimensional specs on this helmet, since it was an archeological find, i'm sure someone made a drawing with specs. Also, what metal thickness for the bronze should be used? I need to get materials ordered, since it seems I am going to make this from scratch myself, with some help. Anyone with data, pointers, advice, ect. please message me, or e-mail me at [email protected] . I am looking at bronze alloy, .09" thick for the helmet, though i'm sure the brow reenforce should be thicker. Finally, does anyone have some good pictures of hinge plates so i can see how they are properly designed?
THANKS!
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - jho - 03-30-2010
Kevin,
Your helmet is not an archaeological find but from the art market. You can find it in the helmet gallery on this site here:
[url:1mln6tgz]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,281/Itemid,96/[/url]
It was sold at Hermann Historica and described thus:
"Lot Nr.434 - A bronze helmet of the Hagenau type. Roman Empire, 1st half of the 1st century AD. Bronze, cast and hammered. Hemispherical bowl with a hollow mushroom shaped knob. Broad horizontally protruding neck guard with a riveted, moveable attachment ring. Riveted forehead loop. Hinges riveted at the sides for the missing cheek flaps. On the side there are solder remnants from the mountings for the lost plume holder. The neck guard has an etched inscription in two lines, presumably two different owner's names. Unrestored river discovery with cracks and small defects in the area of the knob, the rear of the head, and the transition to the neck guard. Height: 21 cm. Weight: 1080 g. Rare, with exception of the cheek flaps, completely preserved, Roman Legionnaire's helmet from the late Augustan period.“
The German text also mentions the remains of solder for the feather tubes. Hermann Historica may have more information on this helmet.
If you want to go for this helmet type, you may be better served with the following find complete with cheek pieces:
[url:1mln6tgz]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,67/Itemid,96/[/url]
It has been published in Schalles, H.J., (1993) in Schreiter, Ch. (Ed.), "Geschichte aus dem Kies. Neue Funde aus dem alten Rhein bei Xanten", Xantener Berichte, 3, Mil 6 Infanteriehelm, Abb. 27, Taf. 23 and can provide scans of the relevant pages if you need them.
In any event, I do not think that anybody would today support a dating of this type of helmet as early as late Caesarian (Late roman republican c. 44 bce - 30ish bce). For this period you may be better served with this helmet:
[url:1mln6tgz]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,424/Itemid,96/[/url]
dated by its inscription to 49/8 BC. Alternatives would be Mannheim tpye helmets (no need for cheek pieces here) or early Agen/Port helmets.
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - kevair464 - 03-30-2010
Interesting, this is why i posted on here, learning alot!
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - jho - 03-30-2010
Kevin,
Please PM me if you need any additional information on any of the alternative helmets referred to above.
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - Matthew Amt - 03-30-2010
Quote:If you want to go for this helmet type, you may be better served with the following find complete with cheek pieces:
[url:1wquyq7r]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,67/Itemid,96/[/url]
It has been published in Schalles, H.J., (1993) in Schreiter, Ch. (Ed.), "Geschichte aus dem Kies. Neue Funde aus dem alten Rhein bei Xanten", Xantener Berichte, 3, Mil 6 Infanteriehelm, Abb. 27, Taf. 23 and can provide scans of the relevant pages if you need them.
Aren't the Xanten finds simply a collection of loose bowls, and a number of loose cheekpieces? I didn't think any of those helmets were found with cheekpieces still attached. The museum has simply put "associated" pieces together for their display, though I don't think they've done it wrong.
Good point about the dating. Montefortino helmets are the generally accepted Caesarian type. But it IS curious that the brow reinforce, which we tend to think of as being a response to Gallic cutting swords, seems to appear only AFTER the conquest of Gaul! Though I guess there are still "Celtic" areas such as Thrace, so the threat is not gone.
Valete,
Matthew
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-30-2010
Even more strange, considering the long history of conflict between Roma and the Gauls. Good point Matt.
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - kevair464 - 03-30-2010
What I am having issues with is finding helmets that date withing the POST Caesarian, PRE Augustan period, i.e. the Second Triumverate. Yes some of the Caesarian and earlier helmets would still be in use, but this is in an era post-gallic wars, ~40-30 bc or so. Also there seems to be a hole in the helmet record from the early monte helmets to the coolus and gallic style helmet.
Feasibly i would like something that would work from the era of the second Triumverate/second set of civil wars, through early Augustan.
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-30-2010
I wonder how the coolus and late montefortinos are so accurately dated as to exclude them from that period?
Re: Reconstructing a Montefortino E / Hagenau - kevair464 - 03-30-2010
I wonder the same thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but is the dating on finds from the date it was LAST used or from its inception? Or is it simply the date of when it was lost in the bog/river/swamp, ect.