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cavalry spearbag - jvrjenivs - 03-17-2010
Hi all,
As some of you may know I'm working on a first century cavalry impression (Batavian, based on finds from Nijmegen). Next I've to finish a bag for those shorter trowing spears (Iacula, if I remember right). Personally I would think to make a cylindrical leather case for them, but I found that Junkelmann use flat cases. What are the sources we have? I'm also not sure about the construction of the one Junkelmann proposes. I would say it hase some wooden? core?
Re: cavalry spearbag - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 03-17-2010
Jurjen,
Some quivers used by mongols, etc... in mounted archery are "squarish" sectioned, not cilindrical.
Probably the flat side offers more "stability" in the horse, avoiding some movement in the sides of the horse.
Only my suposition, of course.
Re: cavalry spearbag - Paullus Scipio - 03-17-2010
Our source for 1C AD cavalry carrying 'darts' is Josephus III.93:
" The trooper carries a long sword on his right hip and an enormous pike (kontos) in his hand, a shield slanted across his horse's flank (c.f.depictions on Trajan's column) and in a quiver slung alongside, three or more darts/javelins ( akontes), broad pointed and as big as spears (dory - J. may mean the dual purpose 'lanchea/longche' here. ) Helmets and armour of Infantry pattern are worn by all arms."
As you can see, details of the 'quiver' are not expounded.
Arrian, describes cavalry exercises in which one, two or three 'lancea' are launched in the course of a single 'run' against a target - the first from the edge of the target zone, the second as he closes in and the third at a separate target as he turns way to the right (to keep shielded side to the enemy) - this latter throw, difficult to execute as the horse turned was called by the Gallic term 'xynema'.
Re: cavalry spearbag - mcbishop - 03-18-2010
Quote:As some of you may know I'm working on a first century cavalry impression (Batavian, based on finds from Nijmegen). Next I've to finish a bag for those shorter trowing spears (Iacula, if I remember right). Personally I would think to make a cylindrical leather case for them, but I found that Junkelmann use flat cases. What are the sources we have? I'm also not sure about the construction of the one Junkelmann proposes. I would say it hase some wooden? core?
The lower register of the tombstone of Oclatius is quite a useful one (always assuming that is a quiver on the calo's shoulder and not a broom or something equally ridiculous).
Mike Bishop
Re: cavalry spearbag - John Conyard - 03-18-2010
A Bosporan grave stele (3rd century) seems to show a carrying system allowing two javelins to lie flat against the horses side. The shafts are clearly dipicted as if they were almost held within integral pockets which made up the case. The heads are point upwards, which is not a good idea.
However I would go for a simple tube, that you could use for both arrows and for javelins as the different parts of a show dictates. Short of using a seamless tube made from the neck of a young camel such as the leather quiver from Dura, I would take the first century AD tombstone of Flavius Proclus at Mainz as a pattern. It is a big case.
I like the tube because when worn on a baldric it is easily pulled from behind the right leg to the front right of the saddle to allow easy access. I put a wooden disc in the bottom of the quiver to protect it from the sharp points of the weapons. However the weight of the javelins pull the quiver into a flat shape at the top, making it look flat against the side of the horse.
[attachment=0:353fz1hs]<!-- ia0 mrp09142.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:353fz1hs]
Re: cavalry spearbag - jvrjenivs - 03-18-2010
Thanks all. This is very useful. Think I'll copy your design, John, as a first try, as that seems much more usefull and logical as the one Junkelmann proposes..
Re: cavalry spearbag - Robert - 03-19-2010
Salve Jurjen,
Here are some pictures of my leather (arrow)quiver. I second John's comment about putting a sturdy wooden base in the quiver for the javelins, as the point will work through the leater at the bottom multo quick! As you can see I added a dividing strap in the mouth of the quiver to help space the shafts. The top is doubled with thick leather to keep it in shape. You may want to put the seem at the back. Will be bring you the six javelin points copied from the Nijmegen finds tomorrow!
Re: cavalry spearbag - jvrjenivs - 03-19-2010
Quote: Will be bring you the six javelin points copied from the Nijmegen finds tomorrow!
Thats exactly where I need that case for Hope you mean bringing it on sunday. Would you mind bringing your quiver as well. Would be nice to have a look at it, if possible
Re: cavalry spearbag - Robert - 03-19-2010
Ah yes, sunday :oops: ! Smithing demo in an Iron age village tommorow. Hope to sell some stuff. Will bring quiver!
Re: cavalry spearbag - John Conyard - 03-19-2010
At times the Netherlands sounds an active place for re-enacting.
That quiver looks good and sturdy. Very good for the early period.
In the later period many people copy the Roman Virgil to produce a soft leather quiver held open by thicker bands of red leather.[attachment=0:z9pr52b3]<!-- ia0 quiver.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:z9pr52b3]
Re: cavalry spearbag - jvrjenivs - 03-19-2010
that one is also nice John. When I get to add a late Roman cavalry impression one day, I probably will follow that design too
Re: cavalry spearbag - Robert - 03-19-2010
Yes, a low slung quiver has many advantages, the most important easy draw. To get any firing rate at all, the early period archers would have had to unsling the quiver to get quick acces to the arrows for sure. I intent to add a brass ring at the front (four holes to afix a plate) to allow me to plant a stick upright to steady the quiver in front of my firing position. I based it on the observations of B&C and what iconographic evidence there was. This is indeed for my first century impression, wearing "standard" aux uniform and Galic G or H helmet.
Re: cavalry spearbag - John Conyard - 03-20-2010
Interesting. In a similar way I plant a close range heavily spined arrow in the ground to support the quiver and allow it to stand upright, and use two arrows to hold the bow off the ground by placing the string in the two nocks.
I use a simple leather loop at the base of the quiver to allow it to be carried across my back if needed.