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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Printable Version

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RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Steven James - 06-10-2017

I am not sure if this link has been posted here before, sorry if it has been.

http://bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arch_intro.html


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Windmill - 06-19-2017

(03-11-2010, 11:16 AM)mcbishop Wrote: Discuss ;-) )

My theory is the battle was nowhere near Watling St with the two legions of Paulinus but on, or close to either Akeman St or Fosse Way down south. Why you may ask? Because Boudica would not make the same mistake as Caratacus by being betrayed by people like Queen Cartimandua. She did not need to go to hunting for the Romans after the sacking of St Albans, she needed a strategic plan. One legion in Exeter and two in Anglesey. She knocked out the Hispana IX and had a better chance of destroying the solitary Augusta II because of the time difference between her army getting to them before Valeria and Gemina could relieve them. It's a game of chess. Either way Boudica's army would want and taste blood. BTW I stumbled across this forum because I was looking at the analytics on my website, www.boudicabattlefield.com and there were links to here Smile
Having just listened to In Our Time on Boudica (see the thread here), it occurred to me that there may be some mileage in debating the old chestnut, Where Was Boudica's Last Stand? The programme duly unfurled the usual 'somewhere in the West Midlands' line (Mancetter being a favourite), but I would be interested to know what the resident RAT Armchair Generals think about this, given that Tacitus is so sparing with geographical information.


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 06-20-2017

(06-19-2017, 07:35 PM)Windmill Wrote: the battle was nowhere near Watling St with the two legions of Paulinus but on, or close to either Akeman St or Fosse Way down south.

Hi Windmill

A couple of us have suggested sites on Akeman - although much closer to St Albans, around Tring.

But if Boudica and co wanted to head west and fight II Augusta, why would they not take the Portway due west from London? That would be the quicker route.


(06-19-2017, 07:35 PM)Windmill Wrote: She did not need to go to hunting for the Romans

I'm not keen on the idea of the Britons heading off for a showdown with the Roman either - or at least, not over any great distance.

But if they were going west to fight II Augusta, surely 'hunting the Romans' is exactly what they were doing?



(06-19-2017, 07:35 PM)Windmill Wrote: One legion in Exeter and two in Anglesey.

We don't, I think, have any very clear idea where the various legions were based at this point - except that IX was presumably somewhere around Longthorpe and the main force of XIV at least (probably XX as well?) was with Paulinus.

Michael (Renatus) has a theory - somewhere in the trackless wastes of this thread - that it was only a veterans detachment of II Augusta left in the west to guard the fortress while the rest of the legion were away with Paulinus. That would explain why they were commanded by the praefectus castrorum.

The two other legions - XIV and XX - would also have veterans detachments at their forts (possibly around Gloucester, Alchester and/or Usk), and Paulinus sent out a call to all of them to join him for the battle. The XIV and XX detachments managed it, while II did not.



(06-19-2017, 07:35 PM)Windmill Wrote: her army getting to them before Valeria and Gemina could relieve them.

One problem with this strategy might be that the Britons would know that Paulinus and his expeditionary force were heading south to fight them (and were probably already in the vicinity of London). If they went off into the west looking for II Augusta, they would be leaving a mobile and hostile force in their rear, cutting off their line of retreat and their route home.

If the Britons wanted a victory, surely they'd be better off fighting Paulinus and his main force, rather than trekking off for many days westward to face a smaller enemy?


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 06-20-2017

(06-20-2017, 12:40 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Michael (Renatus) has a theory - somewhere in the trackless wastes of this thread - that it was only a veterans detachment of II Augusta left in the west to guard the fortress while the rest of the legion were away with Paulinus. That would explain why they were commanded by the praefectus castrorum.

This is the post in which I first advanced this theory:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/thread-16575-post-286343.html#pid286343


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 08-11-2017

sad to discover we lost Barry Horne of the Dunstable theory;
http://www.dunstabletoday.co.uk/news/campaigning-historian-barry-has-died-1-8055346

Page 89;
http://www.archaeologyuk.org/cbasm/index_htm_files/SMA%202014.pdf

299424


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 08-11-2017

(08-11-2017, 08:25 PM)John1 Wrote: we lost Barry Horne

Oh dear, that's sad news!

I had a brief correspondence with Mr Horne back in 2013, during which we discovered that we had independently arrived at almost exactly the same proposed site for the battle. He did mention at the time that he had an illness that prevented him travelling, but I never heard any more about it.

Thanks for letting us know, John.


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 11-24-2017

Boudiccas annual outing this time by Bettany Hughes on Channel 5. Some new stuff from recent Colchester finds (Crummy and Paites).

She goes for 60AD, a Cavalry dash by Paulinus, the forces bumping in to each other on Watling Street, B dying in battle and driving a taxi as an "UBER-woman". Evidently she is not reading the thread, D-

http://www.channel5.com/show/eight-days-that-made-rome/


336 873


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 11-24-2017

(11-24-2017, 10:07 PM)John1 Wrote: 60AD, a Cavalry dash by Paulinus, the forces bumping in to each other on Watling Street, B dying in battle and driving a taxi as an "UBER-woman".

And some funny-looking leather lorica. Does nobody bother researching these things any more?

'Driving a taxi' though? Even Webster would have baulked at that!

(I did notice this one before, but after being deeply underwhelmed by the 'Spartacus' episode I haven't bothered with any subsequent ones. The website wants me to disable Adblocker to watch it - would that be worthwhile, or is it all just too silly to be endured? And is Mike Loades on it again?)


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 11-24-2017

No Mike Loades, a very rare find these days....

Started well with context, feminism and brutality in the Empire, same old same old after half way, no real effort to follow the thread hence the D-

You have to watch if you want the full set badge.. feel the pain.


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 11-24-2017

(11-24-2017, 10:07 PM)John1 Wrote: She goes for 60AD, a Cavalry dash by Paulinus, the forces bumping in to each other on Watling Street, B dying in battle and driving a taxi as an "UBER-woman".

I was going to watch it but, in the event, could not do so. Then I thought of watching it on the Channel 5 website. I shan't bother now.


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 11-25-2017

(11-24-2017, 10:35 PM)Renatus Wrote:
(11-24-2017, 10:07 PM)John1 Wrote: She goes for 60AD, a Cavalry dash by Paulinus, the forces bumping in to each other on Watling Street, B dying in battle and driving a taxi as an "UBER-woman".

I was going to watch it but, in the event, could not do so. Then I thought of watching it on the Channel 5 website. I shan't bother now.

Like so many things in history ... which appear to be a mystery ... the site of Boudica's last stand has a generally perceived concept of what happens (going up Watling St.) which is neither supported by any history, any archaeological evidence, any common sense ... but has gained so much traction that it is repeated time and time again as if it were indisputable fact. And then people say "it's a mystery why the battle site remains unknown".

So, having read much of this thread and decided that a lot of what is said about Boudica's battle is a load of cobblers ... and taking the best comments and having done quite a lot of new research that gives me a better insight into how those like the Romans viewed the landscape ... this summer I visited what I think is a better candidate than any other I've heard about (which is not to say it is a good candidate, only that the rest are rubbish).

And when I arrived on site I thought "wow ... so many died" .... it looks right... etc.

But it also felt a bit of a anti-climax, because the great fun with boudica's battle is finding the site (or at least what everyone thinks is a site), and what if it were the site? At best a few moments of unwanted publicity, most likely decades of exasperated dealings with those in authorities with a "Not discovered here" kind of mentality.

So ... perhaps like a crime novel ... you shouldn't give away the ending because people needs their mysteries.

Who am I kidding?  ... I know the greatest feeling in the world is  ... is that time between "discovering" a site  ... and someone starting to dig your "discovery" and finding absolutely nothing.


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - David Scothorn - 11-25-2017

... but has gained so much traction that it is repeated time and time again as if it were indisputable fact. And then people say "it's a mystery why the battle site remains unknown".


But Ms. Hughes has cracked it.

From memory ,'' The location is a  mystery, but probably somewhere in the West Midlands''

The only geographical area of West Midlands covering Watling Street is of approx 3kms length North of Brownhills.


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 11-25-2017

(11-25-2017, 07:42 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I visited what I think is a better candidate... (which is not to say it is a good candidate, only that the rest are rubbish).

Please do tell us more!

(and also tell us why you consider Church Stowe, Dunstable, Tring, Virginia Water, Bagshot and the others put forward on this board in considerable detail over the years to be 'rubbish'!)


(11-25-2017, 08:07 PM)David Scothorn Wrote: ''...but probably somewhere in the West Midlands''

*sigh[Image: tongue.png]


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 11-25-2017

(11-25-2017, 08:11 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(11-25-2017, 08:07 PM)David Scothorn Wrote: ''...but probably somewhere in the West Midlands''

*sigh[Image: tongue.png]

A very restrained response, if I may say so, Nathan!


RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 11-25-2017

(11-25-2017, 08:11 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(11-25-2017, 07:42 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I visited what I think is a better candidate... (which is not to say it is a good candidate, only that the rest are rubbish).

Please do tell us more!

(and also tell us why you consider Church Stowe, Dunstable, Tring, Virginia Water, Bagshot and the others put forward on this board in considerable detail over the years to be 'rubbish'!)
When a huge number of man hours have been spent trying to find any evidence at all of a battle and non has been found, then I think I'm entitled to say they are rubbish.

And, yes I could go through a detailed argument as to why I suggest a certain site ... but ... I look at all the thousands of hours people have spent on the subject with absolutely no evidence being found. Then I just look at the statistics ... many many people just as convinced as I am ... yet all of them proven to be wrong.

It therefore follows that statistically there's only a very remote chance I'm right and an extremely high chance that my preferred site is also rubbish like the rest.